Russian arms saleman claimed China dont think very high about Su-35

[Tigershark]

Oh my god, this guy just keeps delivering.

1.) Why don't you give me a detailed report of how Type 99A2 is better than T-90MS, and then we can talk? No serious expert would agree with you. China still imports ex-USSR engines, guns, ATGMs, turet instalations, for its tanks and IFVs. Your ignorance is astounding.
2.) What stealth ships?
3.) China can't even power its own "stealth" fighters. How sad.
4.) LOL! You just went ful retard. Russia can't send a man into space?


SOrry, I am done responding to some butthurt Chinese children.

i already explain but you do not understand
1. as i said most project in russia is just upgrade of soviet period weapon! t90ms is upgrade of t90 from soviet time and t90 is an upgraded t72. type 99A2 is a new model.
2. see plan thread. 052C 052D 054A 022, do i need say more? russia do not have stealth destroyer and very small number of stealth frigate and i think one burnt down
3. again you can only focus on engine. chinese know china is weak in engine but pakfa still using flanker engine variant so russia is like china.. stuck using old generation engine
4. russia need kzakhistan to send rockets into space now and no longer have money to do many space mission like china. russian space industry has went back in time.

[SGW06]

Just leave these sour-grapse russian fanboys along, with the engine breakingthrough about to take place in the near future, China dont need ANYTHING from russia, so any cooperations is meaningless for China.

China only get one country to compete with, thats the USA, althrough I would expect the competiton could be very short-lived, thanks to the fact:

(1) China has significantly more resources to compete (In terms of industry output, esepcially the heavy industry, China today is 4X-5X of the peak time of soviet union, and roughly equal to the combination of the entire rest world's industry output now, yet still growing at a very high rate), make the competition looks like the competition between USA and Japan or some aging european states during WW2 ;

(2) Unlike russians, the americans are far more practical, they will simply give up when they see they have no chance of winning instead of keeping a hopeless case until their country fall into abyss

[TR1]

i already explain but you do not understand
1. as i said most project in russia is just upgrade of soviet period weapon! t90ms is upgrade of t90 from soviet time and t90 is an upgraded t72. type 99A2 is a new model.
2. see plan thread. 052C 052D 054A 022, do i need say more? russia do not have stealth destroyer and very small number of stealth frigate and i think one burnt down
3. again you can only focus on engine. chinese know china is weak in engine but pakfa still using flanker engine variant so russia is like china.. stuck using old generation engine
4. russia need kzakhistan to send rockets into space now and no longer have money to do many space mission like china. russian space industry has went back in time.

Ok, after this post, welcome to the ignore list. It is a waste of time responding to someone as truly clueless as you.
1.) Most land projects in the world are carry overs from Soviet times. I am sorry to break it to you, the Type 99 still uses a T-72 suspension heritage, not to mention the list of imported things I mentioned. Are you lazy or stupid? Go educate yourself. While you are at it, google Armata.
2.) Like I said, what stealth ships? If you are talking about warships in general, yes, China has commissioned many more in recent years. So what? You want a pat on your back? Chinese economy is much larger, Russia doesn't have 1 billion peasants to make cheap **** for the rest of the world. 3.) Russian engine development is ahead of Chinese, sorry. PAK-FA has more advanced engines than J-20.
4.) Seriously, do some reading, you may not come off as so stupid next time. Wrong, wrong, wrong. Russia had far more launches than China last year, could you at least make an EFFORT to back up ANYTHING you say?

Anyways, for the sake of the forum enough. Not responding to you anymore.

[TR1]

Just leave these sour-grapse russian fanboys along,

Making up fake news and using it to fuel a butthurt argument seems more Sour-Grapes to me.

I know it hurts you guy that China signed huge engine deals with Russia in past year. Hurts so so bad.

[Italy]

Oh my god, this guy just keeps delivering.

1.) Why don't you give me a detailed report of how Type 99A2 is better than T-90MS, and then we can talk? No serious expert would agree with you. China still imports ex-USSR engines, guns, ATGMs, turet instalations, for its tanks and IFVs. Your ignorance is astounding.
2.) What stealth ships?
3.) China can't even power its own "stealth" fighters. How sad.
4.) LOL! You just went ful retard. Russia can't send a man into space?


SOrry, I am done responding to some butthurt Chinese children.

I thought Russia wasn't too serious about the T-90MS, instead going for the Armata?

that aside its surely a nice looking tank.. so nice that even Putin is willing to put his firm buttocks into its seats


Chinese new tanks are a compromised design. they try to retain the low silhouette of Russian and early Chinese style tanks but somehow have the heavy weight of a western tank. At least the Japanese got both low silhouette and low weight down in their latest model.

[Sheogorath]

Sorry for barging in unrequested but really, some of these are just silly.

1. as i said most project in russia is just upgrade of soviet period weapon! t90ms is upgrade of t90 from soviet time and t90 is an upgraded t72. type 99A2 is a new model.

At this point, the T-90 has little to do with a T-72, specially an MS. And the Type 99 is as much of a T-72 as the T-90.

2. see plan thread. 052C 052D 054A 022, do i need say more?

A FREMM or a Horizon class is "stealth". Anything from the 052 class or 054 is as stealthy as a Burke class, which means they aren't, at all.

chinese know china is weak in engine but pakfa still using flanker engine variant so russia is like china.. stuck using old generation engine

Izd 117 has little to do with an AL-31FM. On the other hand China can't even get a CFM56 derivative right.

4. russia need kzakhistan to send rockets into space now and no longer have money to do many space mission like china.

Not really. From 2008 to 2012, China has only launched 2 manned missions while in the same period of time the russians have sent 15 manned Soyuz missions.

If we include flights from 2003 onwards, China goes up to 4 flights while Russia did 27 flights in the same period of time.

You lot are still pretty much behind the russians.

[Dr.Snufflebug]

4. russia need kzakhistan to send rockets into space now and no longer have money to do many space mission like china. russian space industry has went back in time.

This is not the right forum for this, but I wonder how you could possibly have arrived at this conclusion?

Russia has four (soon five) active spaceports, out of which ONE is in Kazakhstan and leased by Russia:

• Baikonur (and Bayterek), Kazakhstan
• Plesetsk, Arkhangelsk Oblast, Russia
• Kasputin Yar, Astrakhan Oblast, Russia (military spaceport)
• Yasny, Orenburg Oblast, Russia
• Vostochny, Amur Oblast, Russia (under construction)
• Svobodny, Amur Oblast (active operations ceased in 2006 because Russia did not need it for its space operations)

Add to that a bunch of international companies (with a significant Russian portion) that carry out all kinds of orbital satellite launches elsewhere, be it from mobile ICBM vehicles or from Sea Launch platforms... And nowadays Russian rockets are being launched at Kourou in French Guyana, too. Oh, need I mention that the French/ESA insisted on having the Soyuz there?

There was a total of 84 orbital launches in 2011, 35 of these were launched by Russia. China comes in a not-so-close second with 19 that same year, with USA clocking in at 18. The remaining ones were split between ESA, JAXA, ISRO and Iran.

So no, Russia has absolutely no problem sending spacecraft into orbit, with or without Kazakhstan. The aforementioned Plesetsk spaceport has been used since 1966, even. But the current infrastructure at Baikonur has been maintained by Russia for ages (it has very little to do with Kazakhstan, really), it's an excellent spaceport and Russia has no intention of leaving it before 2050 (although Vostochny will take over some previously Baikonur-based operations). No problem there.

Hand the kazakhs a bunch of dough, stay in control of the largest spaceport in the world (that you built, to begin with). What's the problem?

[J9-J10-J20]

??? And what? I somehow can't see what you are trying to say.

It's not that complicated: China had to use some method to detect and track the incoming RV thousand miles away. Then they needed sufficient computational power to predict the trajectory. After launching, the interceptor had to find the target using its own on-board radar and infrared sensor, and using on-board chips to calculate the vector parameters to adjust its direction of movement toward the rather small incoming RV. If Chinese radar, infrared, and semiconductor technologies are as bad as you imagined, then none of these was feasible.

Few of Chinese technologies is the most advanced in the world. But the best sub-components usually are not required in a perfectly functioning system. It's quite possible for China to integrate some advanced, but not necessarily the most advanced, subsystems to produce some very effective weapon systems.

[MSphere]

I still fail to see connection of this intercept with what I have said. Let me rephrase..

If you take any modern Chinese thermal imager into your hands, you will be surprised how good it is. Pretty much on par with the best stuff you can find elsewhere.. Except for one thing. it ain't Chinese, after all. Nothing worth being called high tech on the thing is designed in China, most of that not even manufactured.. All bowels are French..

The same about night vision. I have tested both most widespread PLA types, the CLNV-WYJ and the AHQ-14K. With the WYJ, the optics and housing are ripped off Leica (Swiss), but at least the headmount is Chinese-made.. The high tech stuff (image intensifier) is licensed by DEP from Holland. With the AHQ, even the glass and housing are again licensed (JSC KATOD Moscow) and the tubes are directly imported from Russia.

These is my personal experience which is much more than just stuff you're reading online. Yes, we know that Chinese radars are okay, maybe even impressive, just like their thermal imagers. But I would not be surprised if the actual Chinese high-tech content in them is exactly as low as with the things I have just described.

I think China is on a good way and their progress is fast, no doubt they are a global player to be counted with.. Unfortunately this raises dozens of desperately uninformed individuals or outright idiots who have nothing else in mind that red domination of this planet coming soon.

[TR1]

I don't want to pollute the other thread, so :

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showp...8&postcount=58

In response to the troll:

I can't read Chinese, but I can read English. Kanwa clearly posted, numerous times, that the Russian salesman story you made this thread about (and tried to bring back the Su-35/China argument that you got SO butthurt about a while ago) is a fabrication.

Live with it.

[TR1]

http://forum.keypublishing.com/showp...1&postcount=59

So you based a thread of some non-insider who knows nothing about the subject, and is considered a fake by an actual news agency?

Cool.

Putting words in your mouth?

Look at the TITLE of your own thread. Do you have memory problems?

[J9-J10-J20]

... If you take any modern Chinese thermal imager into your hands, you will be surprised how good it is. Pretty much on par with the best stuff you can find elsewhere.. Except for one thing. it ain't Chinese, after all. Nothing worth being called high tech on the thing is designed in China, most of that not even manufactured.. All bowels are French..

The same about night vision. I have tested both most widespread PLA types, the CLNV-WYJ and the AHQ-14K. With the WYJ, the optics and housing are ripped off Leica (Swiss), but at least the headmount is Chinese-made.. The high tech stuff (image intensifier) is licensed by DEP from Holland. With the AHQ, even the glass and housing are again licensed (JSC KATOD Moscow) and the tubes are directly imported from Russia...

I do not want to repeat myself. But what's the point of reinventing the wheel if you can get cost-effective alternatives, like the thermal imaging systems? Although for China, there has not been that many alternatives in the past 20 years or so because of the arms embargo.

These is my personal experience which is much more than just stuff you're reading online. Yes, we know that Chinese radars are okay, maybe even impressive, just like their thermal imagers. But I would not be surprised if the actual Chinese high-tech content in them is exactly as low as with the things I have just described.

Again, I do not want to repeat myself. But you do not really need every component to be cutting-edge for the system to work well. You made the typical fallacy of composition.

I think China is on a good way and their progress is fast, no doubt they are a global player to be counted with.. Unfortunately this raises dozens of desperately uninformed individuals or outright idiots who have nothing else in mind that red domination of this planet coming soon.

There are relative few such Chinese persons in the English forums. But I have seen far more China-bashing idiots in the same places.

[MSphere]

I do not want to repeat myself. But what's the point of reinventing the wheel if you can get cost-effective alternatives, like the thermal imaging systems? Although for China, there has not been that many alternatives in the past 20 years or so because of the arms embargo.

That is not what I am talking about. Of course it it sound to buy from France if it's cost effective. Even Russians do that.. The problem is that Hainan or Hioptic buy thermal cores from ULIS France, then slap over a homemade germanium lens and Delrin housing with basic switches and control electronics and soon you have 25 idiots on Chinese forums screaming China Strong, we are way ahead of Europe..

Again, I do not want to repeat myself. But you do not really need every component to be cutting-edge for the system to work well. You made the typical fallacy of composition.

I agree, you definitely don't. And especially not if you are Chinese and intend to export the product. There is certain prejudice towards anything designed in China (I'd dare to say for more or less good reasons, at least thus far) and realistically I don't think that China can target any other than low-end arms markets in the next two decades.

There are relative few such Chinese persons in the English forums. But I have seen far more China-bashing idiots in the same places.

As already said, certain prejudice towards Chinese will remain for quite a time, like it or not. Most posters here have first hand experience with below average quality Chinese goods, you cannot blame them.
Time will tell.. But posters like Tigershark are definitely not helping the situation, quite on the contrary

[dionis]

Super-China, resurrecting dead Soviet aircraft carriers, stealing intellectual property to put planes on those carriers and that's just the start.

Come on now, the day China can produce something like the Typhoon Class or Oscar II, or maybe build its own strategic bombers.. maybe they'd have accomplished something. Till then, hope those Badgers are still holding it together. The Soviets were nice giving those blueprints out

[MSphere]

Super-China, resurrecting dead Soviet aircraft carriers, stealing intellectual property to put planes on those carriers and that's just the start.

Come on now, the day China can produce something like the Typhoon Class or Oscar II, or maybe build its own strategic bombers.. maybe they'd have accomplished something. Till then, hope those Badgers are still holding it together. The Soviets were nice giving those blueprints out

I disagree. They are much better than that. I think they have shown enough in recent years. They just can't do everything at one stroke. Don't be surprised if they come out with a new stealthy bomber in few years - developed in complete silence.

[dionis]

I disagree. They are much better than that. I think they have shown enough in recent years. They just can't do everything at one stroke. Don't be surprised if they come out with a new stealthy bomber in few years - developed in complete silence.

Disagree eh? Other than producing a supposedly 5th generation worthy airframe, what have they done to even remotely compete with the US or Russia in other areas?!

[TR1]

Disagree eh? Other than producing a supposedly 5th generation worthy airframe, what have they done to even remotely compete with the US or Russia in other areas?!

Now you are going to the extreme, but on the other side.

[MSphere]

Disagree eh? Other than producing a supposedly 5th generation worthy airframe, what have they done to even remotely compete with the US or Russia in other areas?!

They have became much more self-sufficient than they were 2 decades ago. I think this was the goal, nothing else.

In the last 20 years they have got their hands on active AAMs, slotted array radars, combat and support helicopters, sniper rifles, night vision, subs, destroyers, support vessels, space rockets, even an aircraft carrier. Now they start to mess with 4th gen engines, AESA, 5th gen airframes..

In a way they can make almost everything today. Good, more than a half of that is just licensed and copied stuff slapped together with few indigenous mods (like Z-19 or all those funny H-6s...) but who cares? It works and is readily available for use.. Ain't that much? In my opinion it is.

[dionis]

Now you are going to the extreme, but on the other side.

Asking an open-ended question is the other extreme? Great logic for sure.

They have became much more self-sufficient than they were 2 decades ago. I think this was the goal, nothing else.

In the last 20 years they have got their hands on active AAMs, slotted array radars, combat and support helicopters, sniper rifles, night vision, subs, destroyers, support vessels, space rockets, even an aircraft carrier. Now they start to mess with 4th gen engines, AESA, 5th gen airframes..

In a way they can make almost everything today. Good, more than a half of that is just licensed and copied stuff slapped together with few indigenous mods (like Z-19 or all those funny H-6s...) but who cares? It works and is readily available for use.. Ain't that much? In my opinion it is.

It's certainly pretty good compared to some other nations when looked at individually - I don't need to name any, there are hundreds of them. Compared to military-tech powerhouses like the Russia or the US they have effectively no history of producing comparable weaponry.

[MSphere]

It's certainly pretty good compared to some other nations when looked at individually - I don't need to name any, there are hundreds of them. Compared to military-tech powerhouses like the Russia or the US they have effectively no history of producing comparable weaponry.

No doubt. On many fields they are still lagging even behind France, Britain or Italy. But they are catchin up fast and their prospects look somewhat brighter than the ones of the abovementioned countries.