Pak-Fa news thread part 21

[Berkut]

mack is correct. They are all the same, and upper pic is T-50-1, not KNS.

[Twinblade]

What is KNS btw ?

-------------------------

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...hter-jet-plans

Indian Air Force chief confirms a few rumours that came up during the last few months:-
-All Indian units will be single seater.
-Significantly different from Russian version as far as weapons, sensors and avionics are concerned.

[flateric]

'Kompleksny Naturny Stend'
well, some translate it as Advanced Comprehensive Testbed or Complex Comprehensive Testbed
literally an 1:1 non-flyable T-50 (that adopted, for example, substandard fuselage panels that didn't pass quality check) that serves as guinea pig
reportedly currently used for various ground tests at GkNIPAS at Faustovo (weapons, live fire etc.)

[TR1]

What is KNS btw ?

-------------------------

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...hter-jet-plans

Indian Air Force chief confirms a few rumours that came up during the last few months:-
-All Indian units will be single seater.
-Significantly different from Russian version as far as weapons, sensors and avionics are concerned.

I am very curious what these major avionic changes will be.

Bad for program timescale and cost IMO.
Good that the two seater was dumped.

[Twinblade]

Thanks Flateric.

I am very curious what these major avionic changes will be.

Bad for program timescale and cost IMO.
Good that the two seater was dumped.

I wouldn't hazard a guess. Even by the concept of Indian stretchable time, 2019 for the final production prototypes is very far away. In the most probable scenario, its just ew suite and local weapons, extreme scenario, everything except engines and airframe.

[MSphere]

Does that mean the doubleseater was killed for good?

As far as I remember, Russians were never keen on twinstick T-50s very much, only bcs of Indian interest they would develop the version and evtl. absord few doubleseaters into service.

[mack8]

Patents pertaining to PAK-FA, first one is for the intake, second one for conformal wing antennas. Courtesy Growler and Flateric @paralay.

http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/246/2460892.html
http://www.findpatent.ru/patent/245/2453955.html

[edi_right_round]

http://www.findpatent.ru/img_data/273/2733949-s.gif

linked above figure no.7...looks it has some sort of actuators.variable inlet?

[Berkut]

"Method of regulating supersonic intake"

[Jō Asakura]

Supersonic flow diffuser. Very clever, not a simple ramp but a RCS optimised variable 'bulge' (without conventional bleed-air doors) with multiple settings to change the area of the intake 'throat' and hence control volume & flow speed to the engine.

[edi_right_round]

Supersonic flow diffuser. Very clever, not a simple ramp but a RCS optimised variable 'bulge' (without conventional bleed-air doors) with multiple settings to change the area of the intake 'throat' and hence control volume & flow speed to the engine.

Does the patent include some description of the blocker?seems the initial figure shows compressor face not less than 30%.

[Jō Asakura]

No it does not. Imho, they will not be using a blocker (for reasons already elaborated in the previous pages). I think LEVCON, supersonic diffuser, curved duct and canted engines already makes for a very complicated intake and flow- hence they won't incorporate a blocker, nor will they need to.

[flateric]

let's fcuking roll today
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...2102640A2.html
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...12102640A2.pdf

[framipic]

Mack8, thanks for the doc related to air intakes design which answers (as much as i can juge) the question I asked in my first and only post some time ago. It tends to confirm my hypothesis that those complex intakes are also part of the LO features of the aircraft:

(automatic translation by Google):
"The invention improves the gas-dynamic characteristics of the air intake, as well as to reduce its radar signature.

Thus due to the parallelogram shaped inlet to the front view and giving all its edges is achieved by reducing the sweep of radar visibility of the object on which it is installed"

Therefore I think that Jö Asakura is right in saying Sukhoï won't need to add a blocker or any other device, the complexity of the intakes and their lips being sufficient to keep radar signature low enough (sorry for the "no s-duct, no stealth" chorus).

I feel that this is a very original and sophisticated piece of thechnology.

If someone with a better technical background than myself could explain the role of those rotating parts described in the document, it would be great !!

[Dr.Snufflebug]

Therefore I think that Jö Asakura is right in saying Sukhoï won't need to add a blocker or any other device, the complexity of the intakes and their lips being sufficient to keep radar signature low enough (sorry for the "no s-duct, no stealth" chorus).

The stealth-treated flexible diffuser is probably not the only thing keeping the intake/engine radar return low, the real ace up their sleeves being the very material that the compressor face is made of (what was it, a boron-magnesium-polycrystalline carbon nanofiber matrix composite?).

[Lonevolk]

let's fcuking roll today
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...2102640A2.html
http://www.sumobrain.com/patents/wip...12102640A2.pdf

Thanks for sharing

[Jō Asakura]

It tends to confirm my hypothesis that those complex intakes are also part of the LO features of the aircraft...

Therefore I think that Jö Asakura is right in saying Sukhoï won't need to add a blocker or any other device, the complexity of the intakes and their lips being sufficient to keep radar signature low enough (sorry for the "no s-duct, no stealth" chorus).

...the real ace up their sleeves being the very material that the compressor face is made of (what was it, a boron-magnesium-polycrystalline carbon nanofiber matrix composite?).

I wouldn't rule out the use of a blocker, but my reasoning is this: if they have the capability to 'stealthify' the structure of the metal matrix composite structure with CNTs (I believe they've had the technical ability for at least 2 years), then why wouldn't they?

In early 2008, at the Tambov State Technical University (Тамбовского государственного технического университета), a research team undertook radar absorption tests on UNM 'Tainut' (УНМ "Таунит") in the frequency range of 8.5 to 12 GHz. 'Tainut' has a MWNT structure with tube diameter of 60nm and length of 10 micrometres.

A monolithic polymer composite plate was prepared with an 11.2% constituent (by weight) of UNM 'Tainut' with surface treatments' thickness of 0.3mm and 0.17mm.

Direct experimental comparisons were made with 2 RAMs used to line the walls, floor & ceiling of anechoic chambers, namely: 'Don' (РПП "Дон") , a structure made of a steel plate thickness of 3 mm, which was glued closely with another ferrite plate of thickness 8 mm. On top of which was the closely pasted ferrite structure consisting of nine (3 by 3) hollow tetrahedral pyramids with base 35mm by 35 mm and a height of 35 mm.

Also, the RAM 'Beam' (РПП"Луч"). This material is a mechanical mixture of organic fibres with amorphous graphite (soot), soaked in an organic binder. The electrical resistivity of the material, "Ray" is greater than 200Mw × m. Elements of this coating are made in the form of plates with thickness of about 50mm and dimensions of approximately 500mm by 1000 mm. With outer (adjacent to the walls of premises) by these plates covered with aluminium foil with a thickness of 0.1-0.2 mm.

The results were as follows: the 'Tainut' polymer composite of thickness 0.3mm and 0.17mm exhibited absorption of -5.2dB &-3.3dB respectively (and outperformed 'Don'). The RAM 'Beam' attained an absorption of -5.8dB, that's a difference of 0.6dB but the latter is 49.83mm thicker!!

Remember, 'Tainut' is now commercially available, so the CNTs infused in the modification of the CFRP in the metal matrix composite fan blade will be tailor made.

They'll probably be happy with a -10dB absorption for a 1mm layer of CNT for the compressor fan blades. As the T-50'2 inlet/engine duct is also made of CFRP it is likely to employ CNT layers of whatever thickness & composition that is required (probably several millimetres), since inlet cavities are large radar reflectors. As the layers would be an integral part of the structure and not a post manufacture treatment, this would solve the RAM adhesion problems encountered on the F-22 ducts, and would probably be relatively maintenance free. The canted engines would mean any incident wave returns would be reflected into the CNT modified ducts.

In May 2009 the Tambov University scientists received a special award:

Представленные на конкурсе разработки вызвали интерес заместителя Председателя Правительства РФ, Председателя ВПК при Правительстве РФ С.Б. Иванова…

[Tainut's] submission for the design competition elicited the interest of Deputy Chairman of the RF Government, the Chairman of the MIC under the Government of the Russian Federation Sergei Ivanov…

http://xn--80aa7afbgahku.xn--p1ai/nn...ws/?page=27288

I bet it did. The T-50 is very dear to Sergei Ivanov's heart.

[Berkut]

Because it is so damn dead these days, here are some pre VVS show pics of -3:

http://russianplanes.net/id89526
http://russianplanes.net/id89525
http://russianplanes.net/id89524

[haavarla]

Thx for the pix.

Just to get the thread going.
The latest news from India suggest IAF will cut back on their 5th Gen fleet numbers, and the two crew FGFA in particular.
But one interesting issue here.. it seems to me that the whole original Indian FGFA program is dead in the water.
And afaik, no deal has been signed and India has not contributed with anyting yet..
Instead we see article that IAF will get a lot more of the singel crew T-50I if you will.

And we pretty much know VVS will only get a limited numbers of the two crew T-50 later on.
VVS will cover their situation with their Yak-130 and Su-30SM as advanced trainers, and then progress the T-50's.

Well, if the Two seater T-50 is so much delayed and it will be produced in such small numbers, is it not a real danger that the two crew T-50 could get scrapped, they could save a lot of resource, time and funding this way?

[Trident]

Did India ever formally commit to a higher number than 144 or whatever it is that is now being bandied about? Because regardless of what number their initial order finally turns out to be, I'm pretty sure it won't be the last word anyway - as with the Su-30MKI I would expect follow-on purchases. So to call it a 'cut-back' is a bit exaggerated.

[Dr.Snufflebug]

T-50-4 draws near, I can feel it in the air.

[Wanderlei]

T-50-4 draws near, I can feel it in the air.

me too. I can smell new reveals with "4" rolling out. Maybe weapons bays open? !!!

[blackwood]

Sukhois web site last week said very near future. Last time this was said it was a month away. Lets hope sooner. Fully equiped with asea and maby other electronics. Will it fly direct from factory to moscow as said. That would be great. It would need re-fueling to get there. Which they have already have tested.

[Berkut]

Sukhois web site last week said very near future. Last time this was said it was a month away. Lets hope sooner. Fully equiped with asea and maby other electronics. Will it fly direct from factory to moscow as said. That would be great. It would need re-fueling to get there. Which they have already have tested.

Highly doubt it will fly from KnAAPO to Moscow *directly*, with in flight refueling. What they mean is most probably with landing, refueling and pilot resting overnight. As they did with Su-35S. Besides, T-50-2 has only done dry connections as far as i know, meaning no fuel transfer.

[Austin]

AW&ST: Throttling Back

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/td110.jpg

[haavarla]

AW&ST: Throttling Back

http://i44.servimg.com/u/f44/15/54/62/79/td110.jpg

Just as i had forseen..

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...&postcount=169

[TR1]

Just as i had forseen..

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...&postcount=169

Pff, I called it from the PAK-FA's first flight.

[haavarla]

So you did TR1, so you did
Anyway, isn't it a little early for IAF and HAL to put up exact numbers at this time?
I mean it is still years away, and if we look at how the MKI orders have been done.. well, they chopped it up into smaller orders over time.

[FalconDude]

It might be financial reasons

It might be political reasons

It might be because their insight into the project tells them the plane will not fulfil their requirements, but have a commitment with Russia they do not wish to break not to upset their relationship.

It might be because they simply don't need that many.


who knows... I can take a guess, but hey... who am I ?

[haavarla]

Even a monkey can understand that this has to do with HAL..
Nice try though