Future UK MPA/ASW aircraft

[Fedaykin]

A new thread to gather thinking me thinks. Inspired by this Lockheed Martin promo video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kjFij...&feature=g-u-u

What I found interesting was even before it was mentioned by the Lock-Mart rep I was thinking this could be a way back into a Long range MPA for the UK. With Globemaster, Atlas and Voyager being the future UK transport triad and the intended retirement of the Hercules from that role maybe this is an affordable way to get an MPA type. Once the new transport triad is fully stood up and the C-130J gets close to draw down identify lets say eight of the best airframes out of the lot plus three or four parts mules and convert them into SC-130J configuration. They could also recycle parts saved from the MRA4 program like the Radar, optics turret, mission system, ESM/ESW and MAD sensors etc... It has the advantage of the upfront cost of the aircraft paid for and support infrastructure already being in place for the basic type. I envisage some kind of joint operation with the pilots and ground personnel coming from the RAF C-130 community and the sensor operators coming from the Navy Merlin community.

I know Marshall's of Cambridge offered something similar and I see them getting sub contract and conversion work but maybe this rather open ended solution from Lock-Mart is the cheapest way into a credible long range MPA and ASW type. We have the airframes and we have significant sensors in storage.

Or do people have other ideas...

[Portagee]

I thought that the C130Js were going through airframe life like it was going out of fashion,and that they would be completely replaced by the Atlas Fleet.

How would the costs of

a/ overhauling 8 airframes and parting the best of the rest. The there is the whole system integration of Nimrod Radar, ESW/ESM optics MAD Suite etc. All on airframes that even with overhaul might not last that long in a maritime environment.

Compared to for example

b/ 8-10 New Build C295M with off the shelf mission capabilities that is already flying and continues to win orders. OK there will be some UK systems integration as well, but this aircraft is already cleared on a number of weapons systems as well.

As much as I can see why Lockheed are flogging such a variation, at this moment in time I think that it is overkill for the current requirement.

[19K11]

I cant see the UK having the money for any MPA for a long time.

[Dazza]

I cant see the UK having the money for any MPA for a long time.

Partly right, the money could be found, at the expense of other more 'worthy' needs... When all is said and done, spending money on defence is not something the majority of the UK public are impressed by, or concerned with, and as such politicians are loath to make any increase in defense spending because it is not a vote winner. Given the complete horse's @rse the current encumbents are making of the horse's @rse the last encumbents left them with, votes are what they are going to be desperate for come election time!

-Daz

[jbritchford]

What about some kind of UAV MPA? Something like the Predator C or the BAE Mantis?

It would mean introducing a new type yes, but with much lower operating costs.

[Portagee]

I've yet to see a UAV with a cabin full of additional sonar buoys, nor for that matter the ability ( how ever rarely used) of dropping a life raft

[Fedaykin]

I think a UAV based solution would be very interesting for things like wide area maritime surveillance but as Portagee says they are lacking when it comes to prosecuting a target or dropping life rafts.

Also agree with Portagee about something like the C295m, in respect of a C130J based solution I think Lock-Mart are taking a stab at something that would look superficially attractive to the Treasury and would probably gain RAF support in that it keeps them in the game vs the RN.

The thing is I think we need to decouple some capabilities from taskings and have a hard think about what we want to do. I have advocated that before especially in the area of SAR support.

Personally long range SAR top cover support should be done by the Coast Guard using turn key leased business type jet conversions. When it comes to ASW/ASuW I think a long range jet powered UAV solution for the surveillance side of operations coupled with a type like the C295m for prosecuting targets is far more attractive. They should be a FAA asset with sensor operators coming from the Merlin community, as for pilots it could be an opportunity for the FAA to maintain a larger pilot pool. If all pilots in the FAA who qualify on the F35B have to rotate onto the C295m squadron for periods of time the pilot pool is increased and it makes them more attractive when they enter the civilian airline world.

[seahawk]

SAAB MPA 2000

[Amiga500]

I know Marshall's of Cambridge offered something similar and I see them getting sub contract and conversion work but maybe this rather open ended solution from Lock-Mart is the cheapest way into a credible long range MPA and ASW type. We have the airframes and we have significant sensors in storage.

Or do people have other ideas...

No thanks.

Simply because it is Lock-Mart proposing it.


Their word isn't even worth sh!t when it comes to cost control.



Seahawk is bang on the money.

[swerve]

BAe has a load of four engined aircraft available for sale or lease, good field performance, can carry more than a C-295, used but a decent number of flight hours left, going cheap. - & the RAF's already getting some.



:diablo:

How much to fit the MRA4 stuff we have in storage?

[Orion]

I think that the MPA requirement will be filled by the P-8 and a UAV. I really don't see a C-130 filling the role.

Regards

[Bager1968]

BAe has a load of four engined aircraft available for sale or lease, good field performance, can carry more than a C-295, used but a decent number of flight hours left, going cheap. - & the RAF's already getting some.



:diablo:

How much to fit the MRA4 stuff we have in storage?

Already being converted to bomber config in the US.

OK, fire-bomber... and we're looking to get a bunch of them (at least 15 between Neptune Aviation [11] and Minden Air [4]).
BAe-146 jet-powered Large Air Tanker

And then Canada's Tronos is doing even more of these conversions. http://www.tronosjet.com/forest-fire

[swerve]

I think that the MPA requirement will be filled by the P-8 and a UAV. I really don't see a C-130 filling the role.

Regards

But where's the money for P-8? The C-130 is being suggested as a cheap interim option, using the equipment bought for Nimrod MRA4 in second-hand airframes. P-8 is a potential long-term, full-price solution, not comparable.

[Portagee]

The thing is I think we need to decouple some capabilities from taskings and have a hard think about what we want to do. I have advocated that before especially in the area of SAR support.

Personally long range SAR top cover support should be done by the Coast Guard using turn key leased business type jet conversions. When it comes to ASW/ASuW I think a long range jet powered UAV solution for the surveillance side of operations coupled with a type like the C295m for prosecuting targets is far more attractive. They should be a FAA asset with sensor operators coming from the Merlin community, as for pilots it could be an opportunity for the FAA to maintain a larger pilot pool. If all pilots in the FAA who qualify on the F35B have to rotate onto the C295m squadron for periods of time the pilot pool is increased and it makes them more attractive when they enter the civilian airline world.

I agree, there is a clear arguement for the MCA (coastguard) DEFRA (fisheries) to contribute to the MOD budget for C295M type. This would cover longer range Search to support and then provide top cover on any rescue.
DEFRA's Marine Monitoring Organisation have a contract with Directflight Ltd, for aerial surveillance. Combined SAR training fisheries surveillance flights would cover this, with the funding to Directflight going towards the C295M costs and upkeep.
The C295M could be ordered in two groups, for the above role fitted for but not with, and the full military fitted with group. The differences would be on the prosecution side. MAD, Sonar Buoys (other group may carry marker buoys) and any weapons fit.
The first group could be upgraded to full military version if required at relatively short notice should there be a need.

[Fedaykin]

I agree, there is a clear arguement for the MCA (coastguard) DEFRA (fisheries) to contribute to the MOD budget for C295M type. This would cover longer range Search to support and then provide top cover on any rescue.
DEFRA's Marine Monitoring Organisation have a contract with Directflight Ltd, for aerial surveillance. Combined SAR training fisheries surveillance flights would cover this, with the funding to Directflight going towards the C295M costs and upkeep.
The C295M could be ordered in two groups, for the above role fitted for but not with, and the full military fitted with group. The differences would be on the prosecution side. MAD, Sonar Buoys (other group may carry marker buoys) and any weapons fit.
The first group could be upgraded to full military version if required at relatively short notice should there be a need.

Errrrr? Thats not what I am arguing at all Portagee! I think the MCA (Coastguard) should lease and operate their own type on a turnkey basis thus decoupling their requirements from those of the MOD. C295M is not ideal for the long range SAR support role, coastal patrol yes but not long range SAR support. Something like the Falcon 900 MSA comes to mind with its long range and high transit speed plus room for communications equipment. Getting the MCA to pay into an MOD asset only perpetuates the problem we had with Nimrod.

[mrmalaya]

So would not Telemos and Merlin work at all?

I'm sure there may be a numbers issue with Merlin, but i understood it to be very good at ASW.

[Amiga500]

Am I the only one that thinks a real maritime SAR aircraft should actually be able to land on the water?

A modern (and probably bit bigger) take on the PBY Catalina.

[A4Scooter]

It is sheer madness for the UK with its huge exclusive economic zone, NATO commitments etc. but a few months ago Phil Hammond made a statement about future military purchases and priorities etc and there was no mention of MR/ASW aircraft.
While those who crewed Nimrod and those on the ground who managed their operations leave the RAF it is a capability that will become more and more difficult to re-instate.
While countries such as New Zealand, Portugal, Spain appreciate the importance of this capability the UK decided that the money be spent elsewhere.
While I could rant about government policy the fact is that there is no future UK MPA/ASW.

[ppp]

@Dazza

If they were desperate for votes they'd have max'd out the national credit card like the previous government did, and have announced a referendum on membership of the EU. I don't think votes are that significant. Getting spending in their constituency could be more of a factor, as per Gordon Brown and the aircraft carriers.

[Fedaykin]

Am I the only one that thinks a real maritime SAR aircraft should actually be able to land on the water?

A modern (and probably bit bigger) take on the PBY Catalina.

Amphibians are a niche capability, when Britain had a global empire reaching into the Pacific there was a fair amount of logic to operating them.

Amphibians are best suited to calmer waters and in the Pacific there are lots Islands and Atolls they can operate out of. In the North Atlantic a long range land based type supported by tankers and divert airfields available in Iceland are more logical.

[Fedaykin]

It is sheer madness for the UK with its huge exclusive economic zone, NATO commitments etc. but a few months ago Phil Hammond made a statement about future military purchases and priorities etc and there was no mention of MR/ASW aircraft.
While those who crewed Nimrod and those on the ground who managed their operations leave the RAF it is a capability that will become more and more difficult to re-instate.
While countries such as New Zealand, Portugal, Spain appreciate the importance of this capability the UK decided that the money be spent elsewhere.
While I could rant about government policy the fact is that there is no future UK MPA/ASW.

If there is the money and will it could be regenerated as a capability but the navy would have to take the lead in my opinion. The Navy retain an ASW/ASuW training scheme for its Merlin and Lynx fleet, it isn't much of a stretch to see sensor operators from the helicopter fleet crossing into fixed wing ops. Pilots are a more thorny issue but I see it as an opportunity for the F35B pilot base within the FAA if they rotate onto any future type. Fact is budget for the RN is pretty much locked until 2020 with the carriers and Type 26. Any capability regeneration won't happen till then I think...then again if a future government gets twitchy its not impossible things could get moved up.

[swerve]

Transport and/or ISR pilots should be able to switch types much more easily than F-35B pilots. Multi-engine completely subsonic jet or turboprop to multi-engine completely subsonic jet or turboprop, or single-engined supersonic STOVL fighter to multi-engine completely subsonic jet or turboprop. Which is more straightforward?

[Fedaykin]

Totally agree there Swerve but I think there could be some interesting opportunities to experiment with the pilot pool. Other option is some form of joint force with the sensor operators coming from the navy and the pilots from the RAF. Now the words "Joint Force" does tend to set people off

Then again it has worked in with the Sentinel force, I was chatting to an army crew member at Waddo and he seemed happy with it all. Actually he made some interesting points, firstly as we have already talked about here he mentioned that an over sea capability with the radar is really a software update away. He also mentioned that when they upgrade the SATCOM the space freed up in the front of the canoe would allow optics to be fitted allowing a Canberra PR9 type capability again. That upgrade would piggyback the images onto the SATCOM setup for the SAR traffic. The old datalink with the ground stations is apparently going as the new SATCOM means they can transmit directly to the theatre commander or Northwood. Considering how versatile the type is proving there was a strong feeling from the squadron guys that a stay of execution was certainly on the cards.

[mrmalaya]

Perhaps a perfect job for the AW609 tiltrotor which they are ready to sell (finally)?

A UK government investment to aid UK aerospace?

[F-111buff26]

or britain can stop stuffing around with old aircraft(trying to get more life out of worn out aircraft seems to be your hobby but its time to end it.), and buy the off the shelf p-8, make no stupid british modifications, and experience on time and budget procurement like the c-17 purchase.

and as for wasting money on the tilt rotor

[ppp]

Sentinel R1 would probably be a better cover for the role. It can't replace a P8, but we'd have to pay for the P8.

[mrmalaya]

yeh, maybe we should switch to buying everything off of the US and whinging about all of our other equipment eh F111buf?

Where is the logic of canning the Nimrod and buying the most expensive anti submarine aircraft out there?

Its Telemos and Helicopters for the future.

And here is a not unrelated article for you all:

http://www.aviationweek.com/Blogs.as...0-9ebd6eb9cdf7

[F-111buff26]

did i say scrapping the nimrods was logical... it was after all, all the extra expense of the RAF being too finnicky and trying to put a brand new system on a aircraft that was ancient.

how many billions wasted? how many off the shelf aircraft could you of had?

answer me that!! buys all the turds you want from EADS i dont care where you get the aircraft.

i just know that billions have been wasted for no good reason.

suggesting something down the same lines is crazy.

buy off the shelf, none to reasonable delays, no risk in development. just buy something!!!

[kev 99]

how many billions wasted? how many off the shelf aircraft could you of had?

There were no off-the-shelf aircraft available at the time except refurbished P3s.

[Amiga500]

There were no off-the-shelf aircraft available at the time except refurbished P3s.

I think that Aardvark's point - which I agree with - is that the Comet airframe should never have been considered for the job.


Why were the systems not considered as installable items onto an A400M airframe (then FIMA) for instance? For that matter - if FIMA timescales were a killer why not just use an A320?


Increased flexibility, reduced cost and more airlifter airframes (if using the A400M option) into the bargain. Whats not to like?