Saab Gripen & Gripen NG thread #3

[Bager1968]

No, what he's posted is a direct quotation from a report 18 months ago.

Source: 12 June 2012 - defenseindustrydaily News

to me it seems to b some confusions in the dating..

Raptor2019 has a habit of posting old news articles.

Lately he has been removing dates and links on purpose to hide how ancient those articles are.

Actually, he put the link in the picture of the Gripen & S340... just click on the picture.

The article is not an old one, since it relates in the past tense events from 2011...

Thailand’s Phase 1 system was originally supposed to become fully operational around September 2011, but it reached that milestone 2 months early, in July 2011. A lot of activity goes into an achievement like that, and the timeline was as follows:

2009: 4 Thai pilots and 20 technicians enter training by the Swedish Armed forces.
June 2010: A 2nd set of 10 more techbnicians head to Sweden for training.
Dec. 2010: 1 S340 ERIEYE AEW and 1 Saab 340 rtransport are delivered, on time.
Feb. 2011: All 6 JAS-39 C/D fighters arrive in Thailand. 6 RTAF F-16 pilots go to Sweden for a 4-month conversion course.
Mar. 2011: One Command and Control C2 system, including equipment for 3 ground based Radio sites is delivered.
June 2011: 10 technicians return from a year of training in Sweden. 6 pilots return from conversion course.
July 2011: Phase 1 system declared operational.

In Phase 2, the RTAF intends to procure an additional 6 Gripen fighters together with associated equipment, spare parts and training, and a 2nd Saab S340 Erieye AEW system aircraft, for about $500 million over a 5-year budgetary commitment from 2013-2017. A budget squeeze ended up delaying this option, but it’s moving forward with a contract. All Phase 2 aircraft deliveries are scheduled to finish in 2013.

Sweden has offered the Gripen fighters with a 2-year maintenance and spare parts support package. As is frequently the case, Saab’s deal includes industrial offsets and benefits involving Saab investment, and Thai-Swedish industrial, science & technology co-operation, technology transfer, and investment co-operation.


Source: 12 June 2012 - defenseindustrydaily News

So this article IS a new one, and specifically says that the contract negotiations for the second batch of aircraft "are moving forward"!

[Snow Monkey]

it's LONG been obvious that Raptor2019 is a traffic phisher bot, irrespective of exactly how old his 'news posts' are...
the issue has been brought up before, yet there is never a response from 'him'...
there is never any posts from raptor2019 EXCEPT for the traffic phishing link posts to this xairforces site.

[swerve]

Actually, he put the link in the picture of the Gripen & S340... just click on the picture.

The article is not an old one, since it relates in the past tense events from 2011...

So this article IS a new one, and specifically says that the contract negotiations for the second batch of aircraft "are moving forward"!

Nope. You didn't track back far enough. The date on the article in Xairforces isn't the date of the article, but the date it was lifted from DID. That article was written (or more likely, edited & updated) in 2011. Further down the same page of DID it states that the contract for the SECOND batch was signed 23rd November 2010. :diablo:

BTW, it was DID I was referring to when I said it was a direct quote from an old article. I'd previously seen it, & went back & checked before posting. I'd not seen the re-dated copy of it on Xairforces.

Now I know what he's doing, I have an even lower opinion of him or her. If this was my forum I'd ban the traffic whore.

[Sign]

http://www.bangkokpost.com/business/...itary-aircraft

Here it say a total of 18 aircrafts. So they have just extended the second batch from 6 to 12 A/C and last delivered in 2013!

[swerve]

No. The plan is for three batches of six, with the third to be bought when funds allow. Raptor219's story is from DID, where it was posted in 2011. The DID article has an error in it: it refers to the negotiations over the second batch as if they were still ongoing in 2011, but the contract for them was signed on 23 November 2010. This is probably an editing error: the article was an old one, updated with events relating to Batch 1 by someone who didn't know anything about the history, & didn't check down the page & find the later news reports.

I've seen similar mistakes before on DID.

The picture is from DID

[Sign]

Bill Sweetman doing a writeup on E/F development:

http://www.aviationnow.com/Article.a...465770.xml&p=2

[kirtap]

Two interesting parts of that article;

1. It is implied there are discussions about using the F414 EPE engine
2. "Gygax also confirms that leaked reports out of Swiss weapons acquisition agency Armasuisse are based on old data and do not reflect the Gripen configuration chosen by Switzerland"

[Sign]

Two interesting parts of that article;

1. It is implied there are discussions about using the F414 EPE engine
2. "Gygax also confirms that leaked reports out of Swiss weapons acquisition agency Armasuisse are based on old data and do not reflect the Gripen configuration chosen by Switzerland"

Also confirming the DSI is under considuration.

[Goldust]

Also confirming the DSI is under considuration.

what's that?

[Klargplutten]

what's that?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverte...personic_inlet

Do NOT event think about searching for it on THIS forum , it will blow your mind , the bad way

[oleholen]

Gripen E/F seems to go ahead steady:
FARNBOROUGH: Gripen makes first appearance with new Raven radar

[Austere]

What are the differences between the Raven 1000ES and the ES-05?

[Sintra]

What are the differences between the Raven 1000ES and the ES-05?

They are the same.

[Loke]

Gripen have the lowest costs of all Western fighters according to Jane's:


http://www.stratpost.com/gripen-oper...ighters-janes/

[Loke]

More on the Raven:

Raven has been developed considerably in the meantime. It is in a production-ready configuration that is at least “two generations” beyond the fixed antenna radar, according to Selex Galileo. The first radar set has undergone final roof-testing at the company’s Crewe Toll facility in Edinburgh and is now fitted in the Gripen NG demonstrator. Flight trials will get under way immediately after the show.

Both Captor-E and Raven employ mechanical repositioners to alter the antenna’s field of regard. A fixed e-scan antenna has a look angle of roughly 60-degree off-boresight, but the repositioner allows the radar to scan across the entire forward hemisphere, and even beyond the 90-degree “3-9 line.” This offers significant tactical benefits, including the ability to undertake 90-degree “f-pole” maneuvers during beyond-visual-range missile engagements.

Captor-E and Raven employ different methods of antenna repositioning, however. The Captor radar’s antenna is mounted on two angled swashplates that rotate in combination or opposition to reposition the antenna. This arrangement avoids any rotation of the antenna, so the polarity of the embedded IFF (identification friend or foe) antennas is maintained.

Advanced IFF

By contrast, the Raven employs an angled antenna mounted on what is, in effect, a rotating drum. This offers significant advantages, but has also required the solving of some technological hurdles. One of them is the development of a sophisticated 360-degree joint, derived from the oil industry that allows the passage of radio frequency signal, power and coolant through it as the drum mounting rotates.

Because the antenna rotates, it cannot mount IFF aerials, as they would change polarity with the rotation. To overcome this issue Selex Galileo has devised the SIT426 active e-scan Mode 5/S IFF system, which it claims is the most advanced in the world. It is the first IFF to use conformal e-scan arrays, three of which are mounted around the fixed portion of the nose behind the rotating antenna.

This arrangement poses its own issues, such as the requirement to sensor-fuse data from the radar and IFF to ensure accurate alignment between the two. In the Captor-E the radar and IFF share the same antenna, so do not require data fusion. In the Gripen installation, however, the fact that the IFF is separate allows it to work in close conjunction with other sensors, such as infrared search-and-track and electronic support measures.

The biggest advantage of the system is its field of regard, which easily matches that of the radar. The side-facing arrays allow aircraft to be interrogated from a parallel track, which is of particular use in a cross-border air defense scenario and is something of which more traditional IFF installations are incapable.

http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...s-e-scan-drive

[Loke]

Saab is to invest in an advanced training centre for experienced fighter pilots initially from Gripen countries and its user air forces, at Air Force Base Overberg in South Africa.

The Gripen Fighter Weapon School is an initiative from Saab in co-operation with the Gripen Air Forces user group. The Gripen Fighter Weapon School will hone the fighting skills of experienced Gripen pilots from all over the world. The custom built facilities on the southern tip of Africa will provide exceptional training with extensive airspace over mountain ranges, desserts and the Indian andAtlantic Ocean. The course will be run during the South African summer which offers favourable metrological conditions. The training will focus on different multirole aspects every year and the advanced airborne exercises will be mixed with academia and survival training in an African context.

“Gripen is now operative and in service in five countries world wide, and the system is continually under development. Saab now believes there is a need to establish an advanced training centre for experienced Gripen pilots with the aim to increase their operational capabilities, provide an opportunity to operate in an environment different from their own and a chance to train in a region that mirrors a realistic future potential deployment scenario,” says Magnus Lewis-Olsson, President Saab in South Africa, and adds:

“The Gripen Fighter Weapon School will increase our understanding between different Gripen operators and our own efforts to create a common software baseline as the pilots will cross reference their experience of Gripen.”

Supporting Gripen customers in Sweden,South Africa, Hungarian, Czech and Thailand, the first course is scheduled to take place late 2013.

New threat scenarios and new requirements will drive the course syllabus at the school and the need for more in depth training on the Gripen aircraft and its systems. It will also increase the students’ operational capabilities by providing a possibility to experience a tactical behavior that differs from their national SOP’s (Standard Operating Procedures) and thereby broaden their skill.

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Sa...-South-Africa/

[Loke]

9 July 2012, in News
Defence and security company Saab and the British Empire Test Pilots’ School (ETPS) have extended the agreement to use the Gripen multi-role fighter for ETPS test pilot and test engineer courses during 2012. ETPS students have used Gripen as part of their training since 1999.

The recently signed contract contains several ETPS courses including two training campaigns per year, one in the spring and one in the fall to take place in Sweden.

The Gripen fighter aircraft has been used in test pilot training courses for 13 years and is an important part of the ETPS Fixed Wing Graduate Course syllabus. Instructors and students use a dual seat Gripen for instructional flights and simulator training, experiencing Gripens advanced technology and flight characteristics. Learning specific techniques, provide systems and assessment on the aircraft are also fundamental parts of the programme. The campaign also consists of target flights where a SK 60 jet trainer aircraft is used as a target for radar assassment.

“Saab is thrilled to have been awarded the ETPS contract for 2012, says Eddy de la Motte, Vice President and Head of Gripen Export. It is an excellent acknowledgement of Gripen’s capabilities having yet again been selected as ETPS choice of latest generation fighter and we are naturally glad to continue this fruitful cooperation.”

There is also a close collaboration between Saab and the Swedish Air Force regarding the ETPS programme, where all flying is conducted in Sweden. Therefore students and instructors will go to Saab flight test facility in Linköping, where a course of simulator flying is held, while Gripen simulator training takes place at the Swedish Air Force F 7 Wing, Såtenäs

http://www.saabgroup.com/en/About-Sa...act-with-Saab/

[Klargplutten]

http://www.saabgroup.com/Global/Docu...arnborough.pdf

To my knowledge the information is not confirmed by Dassault but it might be a good read anyway Maybe there is nice new buzzwords

[Loke]

Sweden in talks with Croatia?

http://translate.google.com/translat...2-artikel.aspx

[Loke]

Brazil looks at Gripen NG during the Farnbourough show, and with a larger delegation than last year.

STOCKHOLM (Reuters) Brazil's Air Force chief, Brigadier General Juniti Saito, inspected a prototype of the Gripen E / F at year Farnboroughmässa a week and seemed impressed with the new AESA radar system of type (active electronic scanning array).
It says Eddy de la Motte, director of Gripen export at Saab, told news agency Direkt after being held out to the fighter aircraft for the Brazilian Air Force Commander, who was there at the head of a large 22-man delegation - bigger than before.
"We exhibited the development of aircraft such as NG that we have to test the avionics (aviation electronics), with AESA radar are in focus. He was impressed and thought it was good that the program is moving forward," says Eddy de la Motte with a view to radar development program that Saab is conducting jointly with the Scottish company Selex but finance themselves.
An AESA radar was, according to Eddy de la Motte is one of the requirements that Brazil has set for its future purchasing decisions of combat aircraft. The radar is different from traditional radar including the antenna moves electronically rather than mechanically.
According to Eddy de la Motte offer competitors for Gripen on Brazil's order also AESA radar systems.
"But there are many elements of the contract: Brazil is interested in technology transfers, that is, transferring both the product and the technology around it. We are very willing to at Saab, and experience are the U.S. and France are not as willing to" says Eddy de la Motte.
According to export manager is the Brazilian Air Force chief well versed on the Gripen fighter plane and probably self-test flown it.
"I think he has done that. His evaluation team has anyway been flying both C/D- and NG-plane, it's part of their evaluation, and it is based on these flights that we have been chosen as one of three candidates, "says Eddy de la Motte.
By Brigadier inspected Gripen were not AESA radar are in place, said Eddy de la Motte, who will not say anything about any changes in attitude to the Gripen in the key figure during the fair.
"We had a constructive and interesting dialogue, but it would be wrong to speak on his behalf," says Eddy de la Motte, reiterating instead the Saab is often said to have a competitive bid for the ability of the product, its price, and any industrial cooperation.

Google translated from http://www.di.se/#!/finansiell-infor...7-0ce0e6c473a5

I did not know Brazilian pilots have already flown the NG Demo? Interesting.

[obligatory]

WOOHAAA !! This is how it's done !

Buyers of the new Gripen E/F will get a “double digit” percent price saving against the cost of the aircraft’s predecessor, the Gripen C/D, the CEO of Saab said on Tuesday.

Speaking at the Farnborough International Airshow, Hakan Buskhe said the new fighter will also offer a 25 percent increase in capabilities.
The price drop and capability hike was a Saab specialty, he said, since the Gripen C/D had cost less than its own predecessor, the Gripen A/B, while offering a 20 percent hike in capabilities.
Explaining the price drop, Buskhe said, “You do that with cars, why not with fighters?”
The Swedish government intends to buy 80 Gripen E/F aircraft, previously referred to as the Gripen NG by Saab. Switzerland has also downselected it for a possible purchase of 22 aircraft.

[Spitfire9]

"The Czech Republic has turned down the latest Swedish proposal for a lease on 14 Swedish-made JAS Gripen fighter jets.

Czech Prime Minister Petr Necas says the deal would be too expensive for his country."

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...zechs-say.html

The current deal runs out 2014. I presume Czech Republic wants it to carry on, just want to get a better price - SAAB has been asked to requote. If a Gripen lease deal is too expensive, anything else would be even more too expensive, surely.

[Trident]

Because the antenna rotates, it cannot mount IFF aerials, as they would change polarity with the rotation. To overcome this issue Selex Galileo has devised the SIT426 active e-scan Mode 5/S IFF system, which it claims is the most advanced in the world. It is the first IFF to use conformal e-scan arrays, three of which are mounted around the fixed portion of the nose behind the rotating antenna.

I dunno about that...

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_mDvQ8xYRdS...14-37_0017.jpg

[EagleSpirit]

WOOHAAA !! This is how it's done !

Well FA-50 Tejas ect are screwed.

[LowObservable]

WOOHAAA !! This is how it's done !

Remarkable... but then Saab has said that the F414 costs less to acquire and operate than the (boutique) RM12, Selex has sold its AESA technology to users that have never bought (or looked at, as far as I know) Raytheon or NorthGrum, which suggests that it is reasonably priced, and the new avionics architecture is more COTS than its predecessor.

[SpudmanWP]

Balance that against this:
http://www.defense-aerospace.com/art...3A-report.html

The Swedish Armed Forces will have to cut back on billions of kronor by next year if they want to afford putting the new super jet JAS Gripen into production, according to a report by national broadcaster Sveriges Radio (SR).

The military in March supported an earlier proposition voted through in the Riksdag that Sweden should develop up to ten of the E/F model JAS.

But according to SR, the army and the government in May received a cost prediction from the Saab Defence Group, a figure reportedly way above what was expected.

In January, SR reported that the expected price tag on the development of the new super jet would reach the vicinity of 32-33 billion kronor ($4.7-4.8 billion), but this figure has allegedly since risen significantly, according to the broadcaster.

[LowObservable]

Sounds like a negotiation in progress - and some reprogramming of funds is likely because the Swedish forces are doing E/F earlier than expected under the timeline agreed with the Swiss.

Negotiated prices are also important because Swedish systems development is covered by (LockMart shills, stop your maidenly ears) fixed-price contracts.

[swerve]

Remarkable... but then Saab has said that the F414 costs less to acquire and operate than the (boutique) RM12, Selex has sold its AESA technology to users that have never bought (or looked at, as far as I know) Raytheon or NorthGrum, which suggests that it is reasonably priced, and the new avionics architecture is more COTS than its predecessor.

Ericsson (before becoming SAAB-Ericsson) had a very long, in-depth look at Raytheon's AESA technology over a few years - then chose Selex as a partner.

The USCG & US border patrol both chose Selex AESA radars for their aircraft in competition with offers from US manufacturers. I don't know about the USCG, but the border patrol specifically mentioned both cost & performance in the press release announcing its purchase. These are much more cost-sensitive & risk-averse purchasers than the USAF or USN.

[LowObservable]

A long time ago, the tech director of what was then BAE Systems Edinburgh, Prof John Roulston, was asked why they were not going full ahead with an E-Scan version of Captor.

His response was, basically, that they were working on AESA but thought that M-scan Captor would be competitive overall until AESA reached a point where T/R modules were being made with the same technology as cell-phone components and became both cheaper and more efficient. Roulston later formed Filtronics to do exactly that - I believe that they are a supplier to Selex.

(I suspect that Roulston's team was also working on the swashplate idea at the time. Certainly, the Eurofighter team now say that they didn't like the AESA's off-boresight limits.)

Selex AESAs are turning up in a lot of places now, while Raytheon and Northrop Grumman still seem confined to US fighters and high-end UAVs like MQ-4C.

It will be interesting to see if Selex gets offered by any of the companies looking at third-party F-16 upgrades...

[swerve]

Selex AESAs are turning up in a lot of places now,

RN helicopters, Italian MPAs, upgrades to Peruvian navy ships & Ecuadorian maritime patrol aircraft, US coast guard & border protection aircraft, Finnish border guard aircraft, South Korean tethered aerostats for border surveillance, UAE corvettes, small UAVs for undisclosed customers (there's a 10 kg SAR AESA radar) . . .

US & other firms are offering Selex AESAs on their platforms.

It will be interesting to see if Selex gets offered by any of the companies looking at third-party F-16 upgrades...

Selex has shown a version of the Vixen with an array tailored for the F-16 nose.