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Thread: Indian Navy : News & Discussion - V

  1. #721
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    Larger images of the photo session.

    INS Vikramaditya is the odd one out in that group with almost invisible trail. Those 4 screws are revving at low speed slicing the fluid very efficiently with low cavitation and still keeping up with the other two carriers,


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFD4vWCUIAA7bv_.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DFD4zxEVYAAXyBb.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE-uOsYUMAAqbuf.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE8E7L7V0AIJShq.jpg: orig
    Last edited by JangBoGo; 19th July 2017 at 06:54.

  2. #722
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  3. #723
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    Perhaps the other two vessel has the Prairie-Masker system installed and running? This uses air bubbles to mask ship noise.
    Oppressi Liberandi

  4. #724
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    I don't think Nimitz has a Prairie-Masker. Izumo wake is so prominent though that maybe she does have some sort of acoustic covering system in use.

  5. #725
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    The Japanese ship is running on two shafts plus it looks like shes quite high in the water there and she has 10ft less draft to start with. I dont think theres anything strange in screws working harder, shallower in the water, leaving a more pronounced wake than a couple of larger 4-shafters alongside.

  6. #726
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    Comprehensive write up on Kolkata class

    http://tejasmrca.weebly.com/naval-sy...ass-destroyers

  7. #727
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    Some more good & large snaps from the recently concluded exercises.

    VKD decked up with 18 x MiG-29K/KUB looks bizzare, particularly the 3 fighters lined up at the front.
    Nimitz showcasing its 36 x F/A-18E/F


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE_lSs0W0AEZ_dq.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE_ls9XXsAA-Ozf.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE_mAEHXgAActpd.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DE_lIDwXUAIKpgn.jpg: orig

  8. #728
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    An upgrade for Talwar class with an integrated mast like that of 22350 Gorshkov class and Shtil-I VLS would be very good.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGIUwIwUQAAKCFK.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGIUwIhVYAIAw7q.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGIUrbbUQAE3ytM.jpg: orig


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGIUziqUMAATyrz.jpg: orig

    Much smaller, yet offer better punch than its Japanese counterpart.

  9. #729
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    I think it might be easier just to straight up buy an export variant of the Gorshkov class if the IN wants Gorshkov-esque subsystems on a Talwar frigate.


    Outside of superior AShMs, I think a Talwar class FFG's sensor and weapons suite is quite a bit inferior to the Akizuki class. That isn't a knock against the Talwar class -- the Akizuki class is a larger warship by nearly 3000 tons with a much more recent sensor suite and fire control system in the form of FCS-3A, as well as the benefit of quad packed ESSMs in a 32 cell Mk-41

  10. #730
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    Much smaller, yet offer better punch than its Japanese counterpart.
    Are you sure? The 'punch' depends on fire control. Sensors, combat system etc. greatly affect its effectiveness. Also, consider the roles of these ships. Which would you rather have against submarines?

    Think about the ASW capabilities. What equivalent of the OQQ-22 & OQR-3 does the Talwar-class have? It has a short-range ASW rocket launcher, but what that could match the Type 07? Teruzuki could have 24 of 'em aboard, & still carry more ESSM than Tabar has Shtil.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  11. #731
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    @swerve

    I think he may have just been talking about the anti surface/AShMs that each ship has...


    In terms of air defense and ASW the Akizuki should be significantly superior to the Talwar class. (Again, not dissing the Talwar class, both ships are in different weight categories and their subsystems are of entirely different generations so that is to be expected.)

  12. #732
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    @Blitzo
    I think it might be easier just to straight up buy an export variant of the Gorshkov class if the IN wants Gorshkov-esque subsystems on a Talwar frigate.


    Outside of superior AShMs, I think a Talwar class FFG's sensor and weapons suite is quite a bit inferior to the Akizuki class. That isn't a knock against the Talwar class -- the Akizuki class is a larger warship by nearly 3000 tons with a much more recent sensor suite and fire control system in the form of FCS-3A, as well as the benefit of quad packed ESSMs in a 32 cell Mk-41
    Going for a new platform without exploring the possibility to upgrade the existing platform/system is not a good idea. But its meant to do the job and oriented towards anti-shipping or anti-sub depending on the mission.

    11356/Talwar class is like that of a T-72 family MBT, the basic design/layout is good and presents (and have shown) good upgrade potential. The current Talwar class does not have those integrated multi faceted arrays and publicized systems like Akizuki class.

    Few changes/upgrades that I would love to see...

    1) An integrated mast atop the bridge
    2) It frees up the area aft of the island where currently the twin guidance unit and associated/other systems are installed.
    3) This area can instead be utilized to install 4 x twin-quad packed Kh-35UE cells (like that of Bal-E costal syatem)
    4) Larger sonar/dome
    5) Podberezovik-EТ1 long range 3D radar atop the hanger



    ^ Install 4 such unit amidship after clearing the area.
    This is what we will get in terms of air-defence and anti-ship/land attack cruise missile numbers after a modification which is very much possible.

    Integrated mast (22350 cut/modify & paste)
    36 x 9M317/M (based on the displayed model)
    24-32 x Kh-35UE amidship (or Klub; consideration being weight rather than space)

    OR

    Integrated mast (22350 cut/modify & paste)
    36 x 9M317M
    16 x Kh-35UE amidship
    64 x 9M317M amidship (containerized like that of Buk-M3)



    ^ It has got one of the most beautiful hull lines but a little cluttered above the bridge and amidship. With a good/simple modification/upgrade, even those cluttering will be gone.

  13. #733
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    @swerve
    Are you sure? The 'punch' depends on fire control. Sensors, combat system etc. greatly affect its effectiveness. Also, consider the roles of these ships. Which would you rather have against submarines?

    Think about the ASW capabilities. What equivalent of the OQQ-22 & OQR-3 does the Talwar-class have? It has a short-range ASW rocket launcher, but what that could match the Type 07? Teruzuki could have 24 of 'em aboard, & still carry more ESSM than Tabar has Shtil.
    Yes, almost all of it depends on the sensors. But the combat effectiveness of sensors are all mostly based on publicized specs rather than based on proper combat exposure against any worthy opponents. So all those are likely to be subjective. This is not meant to say that Akizuki does not have a better integrated fit than Talwar class which is a mid-late 90s fit. I would love to see an upgrade some of which I have mentioned above.

    Regarding ASW, Talwar class does have a bow mounted sonar and towed array. It can also be armed with those 40Km range 91RTE2 Klub anti-sub missiles as against the 22Km of Type07. But the max number will be limited to 8 and will be at the cost of anti-shipping missiles. So its not like Talwar class is handicapped with longer range anti-sub missiles.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DEs-rzLXYAE4xCw.jpg: orig

    Regarding the missile load out, If I understood the MK41 VLS correctly, with your mentioned 24 x Type07 anti-sub missiles, we are left with 8 cells for ESSM. The armament carried by both ships will looks like this -

    Akizuki
    - 8 x Type-90 anti-ship
    - 24 x Type07 anti-sub
    - 32 x ESSM (quad-pack per cell) air-defence

    Compared to the much smaller Talwar class
    - 8 x Klub/Brahmos anti-ship/sub
    - 1 x RBU-6000 (72-96 rockets) anti-sub
    - 24 x Shtil-I air-defence
    - 64 x 9M311 (32 x missiles per Kashtan-M mount) air-defence

    And this is a frigate which is oriented towards anti-shipping.

  14. #734
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    INS Vikrant, going the same way as INS Vikramaditya. The shipyard gets all the blame for funding and other policy/decision related problems.


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DGTfwdDUIAARdtR.jpg

  15. #735
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    @ Janggobo

    Going for a new platform without exploring the possibility to upgrade the existing platform/system is not a good idea. But its meant to do the job and oriented towards anti-shipping or anti-sub depending on the mission.

    11356/Talwar class is like that of a T-72 family MBT, the basic design/layout is good and presents (and have shown) good upgrade potential. The current Talwar class does not have those integrated multi faceted arrays and publicized systems like Akizuki class.

    Few changes/upgrades that I would love to see...

    1) An integrated mast atop the bridge
    2) It frees up the area aft of the island where currently the twin guidance unit and associated/other systems are installed.
    3) This area can instead be utilized to install 4 x twin-quad packed Kh-35UE cells (like that of Bal-E costal syatem)
    4) Larger sonar/dome
    5) Podberezovik-EТ1 long range 3D radar atop the hanger



    ^ Install 4 such unit amidship after clearing the area.
    This is what we will get in terms of air-defence and anti-ship/land attack cruise missile numbers after a modification which is very much possible.

    Integrated mast (22350 cut/modify & paste)
    36 x 9M317/M (based on the displayed model)
    24-32 x Kh-35UE amidship (or Klub; consideration being weight rather than space)

    OR

    Integrated mast (22350 cut/modify & paste)
    36 x 9M317M
    16 x Kh-35UE amidship
    64 x 9M317M amidship (containerized like that of Buk-M3)



    ^ It has got one of the most beautiful hull lines but a little cluttered above the bridge and amidship. With a good/simple modification/upgrade, even those cluttering will be gone.

    I'm sure that the Talwar class could be modified to have all the features that you described, but would it be more cost effective than simply buying an off the shelf Gorshkov export variant? After all, for the Talwar class to feature all of the modifications you mentioned, that means substantial redesign work that the Indian Navy will have to fork out for.



    and as for this part:

    Regarding the missile load out, If I understood the MK41 VLS correctly, with your mentioned 24 x Type07 anti-sub missiles, we are left with 8 cells for ESSM. The armament carried by both ships will looks like this -

    Akizuki
    - 8 x Type-90 anti-ship
    - 24 x Type07 anti-sub
    - 32 x ESSM (quad-pack per cell) air-defence

    Compared to the much smaller Talwar class
    - 8 x Klub/Brahmos anti-ship/sub
    - 1 x RBU-6000 (72-96 rockets) anti-sub
    - 24 x Shtil-I air-defence
    - 64 x 9M311 (32 x missiles per Kashtan-M mount) air-defence

    And this is a frigate which is oriented towards anti-shipping.
    I think comparing 9M311 as an equivalent to ESSM is a bit disingenuous, 9M311 is more like a RIM-116 equivalent, and the "32 missiles per Kashtan-M mount" are below deck reloadables rather than ready to fire missiles like the other weapons systems you listed for both ships.


    Considering Akizuki fields a more capable area air defence capability than the Talwar class even when 24 of its 32 VLS are used for the Type 07 VL ASROC, One can alter the Akizuki's loadout to anything like 16 or 8 Type 07s to have 64 or even 96 ESSMs in the Mk-41s to leverage an area air defence capability that vastly outstrips the Talwar class.


    The Talwar class is a fine ship for its generation and for its displacement, but I think any comparison with a class like Akizuki needs to be fair as well.

  16. #736
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    https://twitter.com/BabakTaghvaee/st...95341407330304

    I finally received the official response of RAC MiG to false claims about structural problem of #India's MiG-29Ks
    http://www.defensenews.com/land/2017...be-ruggedized/

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  17. #737
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    INS Vikrant, going the same way as INS Vikramaditya. The shipyard gets all the blame for funding and other policy/decision related problems.
    Interesting. in comparison to the last image I know (from April I think) they removed all the scaffoldings.

    However it does not look as if any sensors are installed ??

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
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  18. #738
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    Interesting. in comparison to the last image I know (from April I think) they removed all the scaffoldings.

    However it does not look as if any sensors are installed ??

    Deino
    tbh, I'm more concerned at how it seems like all the windows/porthole openings in the island don't yet seem to have glass put in yet, and how it seems like some of the windows/portholes have yet to even have their openings cut out yet.


    I assume that this is a photo not taken too recently but it's hard to tell. If this really is an up to date photo of INS Vikrant then hopefully they've been spending the last few years doing a lot of work inside the ship with only some relatively simpler outer work left to do, if they really want to handover the ship to the Indian Navy next year even if it is more of a ceremonial thing.

  19. #739
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    CNN-News18 Travels to INS Sindhudhvaj to See How Sailors Live Inside the Submarine

    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

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