Indian Air Force Thread - 19

[TR1]

They don't seem to be designed for lift as much as the Mi-24s wings - just take a look at the shortened versions, they show the shape of the aerofoil:
http://en.valka.cz/attachments/5461/MiL-Mi35M2.jpg

The pylons do look quite a bit beefier than those on say the Z-10, and are pretty wide too, interesting why they did not try to stick a third pylon in.

Also talk about large transparency area.

EDIT: So is India buying both LCH and armed Dhruv?

[Anant]

They don't seem to be designed for lift as much as the Mi-24s wings - just take a look at the shortened versions, they show the shape of the aerofoil:
http://en.valka.cz/attachments/5461/MiL-Mi35M2.jpg

The pylons do look quite a bit beefier than those on say the Z-10, and are pretty wide too, interesting why they did not try to stick a third pylon in.

Also talk about large transparency area.

EDIT: So is India buying both LCH and armed Dhruv?

LARGE area windows have been especially demanded by IA / IAF aviation folks as it would allow them to have clear view of the mountains below, for great camera shots and of course for their kids to take ride in

[Loke]

It seems India is dropping the Kaveri for the LCA!??

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

[Boom]

It seems India is dropping the Kaveri for the LCA!??

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

meh, just how many times would "respected" international defense mags print this 4 year old story as something new ? go back 2 pages and you will see the same news from some other rag.

They don't seem to be designed for lift as much as the Mi-24s wings - just take a look at the shortened versions, they show the shape of the aerofoil:
http://en.valka.cz/attachments/5461/MiL-Mi35M2.jpg

the LCH test pilot on BR confirmed that it is built to generate just enough lift to support itself.
I don't think the mi-24 would be any different, otherwise the shearing stress at the joins would be too much to handle and might lead to material failure.

Also talk about large transparency area.

only for the test objects.

EDIT: So is India buying both LCH and armed Dhruv?

yes. army in particular is very enthused with the WSI dhruv.

[TR1]

Mi-24s wings supposedly provide around 25% of lift in level flight, and there is no way they weigh anywhere near 25% of the airframe.

[Boom]

http://en.valka.cz/attachments/5461/MiL-Mi35M2.jpg
these little things ?

I find that hard to believe. it would be easy to arrive at a ballpark figure from a rough estimate of surface area. are you sure you are not confusing with the ka-50 ? they have larger more aircraft like wings IIRC.

[TR1]

I meant the legacy Mi-24 wings. The 35Ms are clipped, but they are as still as long and thick as the legacy wings, more so than any other attack helo IMO. Would be intersting to know how performance changes with the smaller wings in level flight, hmm.

Ka-50 wings are pretty simple affairs compared to Mi-24 size + shape.

[BlackArcher]

Tejas fighters carrying out more bombing trials at Pokhran range with PGMs and dumb bombs.

Pokhran, which witnessed the celebration of India’s nuclear might, is now witnessing a different scene: Made-in-India Tejas fighter jets are demonstrating their fire power here.

Three of these military jets have been taking off from forward Air Force bases to pound the area with a variety of armaments-from precision guided bombs to conventional bombs weighing up to 500 kg.
These exercises constitute the most important phase ahead of their formal induction by the Indian Air Force and are intended to ensure that the bombs are released and hit targets on the ground with accuracy. The IAF will acquire 40 of these fighters with the first squadron set to be positioned in Tamil Nadu.

link

[BlackArcher]

All 6 of the IAF's C-130Js flying together. Pics courtesy Livefist blog

[matt]

Tejas fighters carrying out more bombing trials at Pokhran range with PGMs and dumb bombs.



link

Are they really still just dropping dumb bombs?

[Boom]

Are they really still just dropping dumb bombs?

if yes, what's the problem with that. the CCIP based dumb bomb deliveries are quite accurate.

or do you propose IAF just dump it's massive stock of dumb bombs into the Indian ocean ? or convert them all to smart bombs with kits at exorbitant cost ?

[irtusk]

or do you propose IAF just dump it's massive stock of dumb bombs into the Indian ocean ? or convert them all to smart bombs with kits at exorbitant cost ?

smart bomb kits aren't exorbitant

[Twinblade]

Are they really still just dropping dumb bombs?

Missed the pictures from February trials when they were dropping Griffin LGBs ?

[Boom]

smart bomb kits aren't exorbitant

compared to what dumb bombs cost they are definitely exorbitant, more so if you consider converting IAF's entire stockpile.

[swerve]

Delivering the number of dumb bombs needed to destroy a target without a guidance kit can cost more than the guidance kit. Sometimes, just the bombs can cost more, & one also has to add up the cost of flying the aircraft. And that's disregarding the opportunity cost, all the targets which could have been hit but weren't, because you had to fly more missions (which takes time) before they were destroyed. Take into account that those targets may be weapons which are killing your troops & destroying your equipment, so delays cost lives & money, & smart bomb kits can suddenly look very cheap indeed. How many GPS or laser guidance kits make up the cost of a tank?

Dumb bombs can be the right choice sometimes, though. Depends on target set & circumstances.

[matt]

I have no problems with the types of bombs the IAF want to drop, and to be honest it doesnt really matter if i have a problem with it or not.

What shocked me was an apparently tardyness in flight testing and getting the aircraft operational, it seems a age since the LCA droped its first dumb bomb.

[BlackArcher]

Are they really still just dropping dumb bombs?

are you incapable of reading ? I stated PGMs and dumb bombs.

[quadbike]

dumb bombs should all be destroyed.

[rayrubik]

Indian Air Force to reinforce pilot training
Rajat Pandit, TNN Jun 18, 2012, 10.43AM IST


Tags:
Pilatus trainers|Indian Air Force|combat flying
NEW DELHI: From next year onwards, the IAF will kick off a major upgrade in its entire training programme for rookie pilots who go on to fly expensive fighter jets, transport aircraft and helicopters.

Better initiation into the intricacies of combat flying is critical for new pilots since over 39% of the 1,010 crashes recorded by IAF since 1970 have been attributed to "human error (aircrew)".

The IAF was forced to drastically cut down the quantum of flying for rookie pilots to only 25 hours in stage-I "basic" training for the past three to four years due to acute shortage of trainer aircraft. It now plans to ramp it up to 65 flying hours, with an additional 25 hours on advanced simulators.

This will be possible with the fast-track induction of 75 Swiss Pilatus PC-7 basic trainer aircraft (BTA) under the Rs 2,900-crore deal inked last month after a long delay. "The Swiss have promised to begin deliveries by next January itself ," said an officer.

"We will begin the first course in July 2013 with the first 14 Pilatus trainers we get. Full-scale basic training of all new pilots on Pilatus will begin from January, 2014," he added. Stage-II "intermediate" training on Kiran aircraft for fighter pilots will involve 82 hours, while another 107 hours will be clocked in stage-III "advanced" training on Hawk AJTs (advanced jet trainers).

In effect, rookie pilots will then log 254 hours of actual flying, apart from simulator training. It takes Rs 11 crore to train a single fighter pilot, and around half that amount for a chopper or a transport aircraft.

Training schedules of the IAF, which inducts 240 new trainee pilots annually, went haywire after the entire fleet of the 114 ageing HPT-32 aircraft. The piston-engine aircraft, which long served as the BTA, was grounded in August , 2009, after a crash killed the pilot.

The IAF also has to get a replacement for the 80 virtually obsolete Kirans — currently used for both stage-I and stage-II training — that can be "stretched" only till 2015. By then, Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL) will have to deliver on its long-delayed project to manufacture 85 IJTs (intermediate jet trainers ). The IAF will also need another 106 BTA to supplement the 75 Pilatus trainers.

Iirc USAF trainees get 400 hrs before they graduate.

[matt]

are you incapable of reading ? I stated PGMs and dumb bombs.

so is PGM a word?

Either way they are still in the same family as "dumb bombs" ...

[swerve]

Precision-guided munitions are not dumb bombs, or in the same family.

[matt]

Precision-guided munitions are not dumb bombs, or in the same family.

Why not in the same family? what would qualify them for another family?

[swerve]

Precision guidance = smart bomb, therefore /= dumb bomb.

[matt]

Precision guidance = smart bomb, therefore /= dumb bomb.

so what kind of typical precision munitions are in existance and what do the IAF have?

[BlackArcher]

Why not in the same family? what would qualify them for another family?

when you have such limited knowledge, why do you pass judgement on something you don't even have the least bit of idea about !?

[matt]

when you have such limited knowledge, why do you pass judgement on something you don't even have the least bit of idea about !?

Its an opinion just like the opinion you just passed above, i understand your monikar is blackarcher, but it is not any reason to be an internet warrior.

far as I know dumb bombs are in the same family as guided bombs or munitions unless that guided munition is powered.

Whether it is a KAB or something from the US it is still a item that is droped from an aircraft and travels to the destination under gravity and not through any propulsion of its own, unless you start talking of the air to ground missiles.

I also do not think that there is an increase in complexity between launching a bomb with a added laser or gps guidance kit or a bomb with nothing on it. It does not need anythign extra from the LCA to be able to drop one or the other once the wiring etc have been added to the aircraft during manufacturing and the software is in place.

Hence the comment, after all this time, and remember that the first dumb bomb was dropped many years ago, the LCA is still droping dumb bombs and does not seem to have progressed onto anything more complex. It was also a comment taking into consideration the relatively short legs of the LCA compared to the other aircraft in the IAF inventory. it was a comment also taking into consideration that the IAF have aircraft purposefully design to drop dumb bombs and does not need the LCA to do it.

[Twinblade]

what do the IAF have?

Griffin 3 lgb, some ancient stocks of Paveway III if they still exist. Meanwhile Jaguars can also drop Paveway IV after the MCU integration is finished by Raytheon and Sudarshan kit is being integrated with MiG-27 and Jaguars.

[Twinblade]

Hence the comment, after all this time, and remember that the first dumb bomb was dropped many years ago, the LCA is still droping dumb bombs and does not seem to have progressed onto anything more complex.

How do you know that the complexity of dives to deliver munition has not increased ? Does it ever occur to you that Tejas might be delivering multiple munitions in a single pass or the IAF might be fine tuning the standard operating procedures for delivering air to ground munitions ?

it was a comment also taking into consideration that the IAF have aircraft purposefully design to drop dumb bombs and does not need the LCA to do it.

...and you would be the first to unleash the rant "XX decades into development, billions of rupees into drains and it can't even deliver dumb bombs which a 50 year old MiG-21 can. Lets fire these sarkari babus and bring in ze [insert a random business conglomerate] who will pump in zeir gazillions and produce all kinds of djinn technology in less time than what takes to heat a bagel in ze microwave"

[Boom]

Why not in the same family? what would qualify them for another family?

even people who have very low opinion about your knowledge level can get surprised by your ignorance. add the audacity to still pass comments on such topics, the spectacle becomes one of awe inspiring stupidity.

[Teer]

so is PGM a word?

Either way they are still in the same family as "dumb bombs" ...

Why not in the same family? what would qualify them for another family?

Pathetic..