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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread - 19

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by WinterStars View Post
    A lot has changed since 1990. . But lets spare this thread.
    Right. Back then it was East Germany, now it is the largest economy in Europe.

  2. #62
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    IAF Chief to visit France and take a tour of Rafale production facilities.

    Indian Air Force Chief Visits France
    Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne, is on a four day goodwill visit to France. During the visit, he is scheduled to call on Mr Jean-Yves Le Drian, the new French Defence Minister, Admiral Édouard Guillaud, French Chief of Defence Staff, Ingenieur Général de l'Armement (IGA) Laurent Collet-Billon, Director-General of the French Defence Technology and Procurement Agency (DGA) and General Jean-Paul Paloméros, Chief of Staff of the French Air Force, to discuss a wide range of bilateral issues on the ongoing defence cooperation between India and France.

    The visit that aims at expanding the already robust bilateral military to military ties between the two countries, would see the IAF Chief visit, Cognac, Istres and St.Dizier airbases of the French Air Force (FAF). At St.Dizier, he would be visiting the Rafale Squadron to get an first hand impression of the MMRCA, selected by the IAF, as also to see Rafale’s Production facilities at Mérignac, besides overseeing the progress of the various projects being carried forward as joint ventures between the two countries. He would also be interacting with the IAF’s Project Management Team members for the Mirage- 2000 Upgrade Project.

    The visit is significant, as it is the first high level official visit from India to France after the new government has taken office.

    The Chief of the Staff, French Air Force, General Jean-Paul Paloméros, had been on a Air Force to Air Force visit to India during September last year, where he had also visited some of the IAF’s airbases including Jaisalmer and Gwalior.
    link

  3. #63
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    Indian Minister Explains Mirage 2000 Grounding

    Following the accidents of Mirage 2000 aircraft of the Indian Air Force (IAF) on 24.2.2012 and 5.3.2012, all routine training flying on the Mirage 2000 fleet has been temporarily stopped as a precautionary measure.

    Based on the results of the initial investigations of the accidents, certain checks have been instituted by the IAF. Commencement of flying of the Mirage 2000 fleet is being undertaken in stages post completion of checks.

    During the last two years (2010-11 and 2011-12) and current financial year 2012-13 (upto 19.4.2012), two Mirage 2000 aircrafts have crashed. Technical Defect was the cause of both accidents.

  4. #64
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    Just wondering, has anyone come across any literature on Operational Data Link (ODL), the Integrated Air Command and Control System (IACCS) and Air Force Net (AFNET) ? Its 2012, ODL was supposed to be ready by now, right ?

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    You have evidence of this?
    are there any reports?

    no

    there you go

    Now there are many possible explanations for no reports. Maybe there are no problems or maybe there are problems but they aren't being reported. WE DON'T KNOW.

    Do YOU have any evidence which way it is?

  6. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by irtusk View Post
    are there any reports?

    no

    there you go

    Now there are many possible explanations for no reports. Maybe there are no problems or maybe there are problems but they aren't being reported. WE DON'T KNOW.

    Do YOU have any evidence which way it is?
    Some logic you got there.

    There are many books and sources on MiG-29s exploitation in both Soviet and Russian air forces. None that I have seen have any mention of the kind of engine failure rates experienced by IAF.
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  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Some logic you got there.

    There are many books and sources on MiG-29s exploitation in both Soviet and Russian air forces. None that I have seen have any mention of the kind of engine failure rates experienced by IAF.
    Similar problems were faced by german and polish Migs as well.I had read similar stuff about Eritrean mig 29s also somewhere I dont exactly remember.
    Check out the RMAF mig 29s too.They had pretty poor serviceability iirc.

    btw there is a possible(?) explanation of apparently not facing these problems in VVS service..because exported aircraft components were not tropicalized but supplied in the same condition which they were made to operate in the cold Russian weather.
    Last edited by RayR; 24th May 2012 at 08:52.
    PEOPLE.FIRST.MISSION.ALWAYS.
    Have a good one..

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by rayrubik View Post
    Similar problems were faced by german and polish Migs as well.I had read similar stuff about Eritrean mig 29s also somewhere I dont exactly remember.
    Check out the RMAF mig 29s too.They had pretty poor serviceability iirc.

    btw there is a possible(?) explanation of apparently not facing these problems in VVS service..because exported aircraft components were not tropicalized but supplied in the same condition which they were made to operate in the cold Russian weather.
    1.) Never heard of Polish MiG's having the same sort of engine problems.
    2.) IIRC RMAF had issues with repair/overhaul times and associated cost, which isn't too surprising given they were first gen MiG-29, and came with rather low hours between overhaul for everything ranging from radar to engine. But that's not what I find curious- rather the massive failing of engine before their prescribed overhaul times, as that article that BA posted shows. I can't find this in any other major (or even minor, but lets just stick with the nations who operate several dozen aircraft at the least) operators of the type.
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  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Some logic you got there.

    There are many books and sources on MiG-29s exploitation in both Soviet and Russian air forces. None that I have seen have any mention of the kind of engine failure rates experienced by IAF.
    Probably because the Soviet/Russian AFs are comparing the reliability of the MiG-29 to its predecessors: MiG-21, MiG-23, in which case the MiG-29 (and RD-33) would look very good, reliability and safety wise. The IAF are comparing the MiG-29 to the Mirage 2000 - MiG look not so good...
    Patrick

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    Phantom was an overrated piece of machinery. it was not a bad aircraft, not by any means. but only gained promenance cuz of how wide spread its combat use was. It certainly got spanked by supposedly lower performing aircraft.
    You don't seem to know much about the F-4's service or combat record of the last 50 years or so.

    Tell me, in which war or conflict did the F-4 get "spanked"?
    Patrick

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    Probably because the Soviet/Russian AFs are comparing the reliability of the MiG-29 to its predecessors: MiG-21, MiG-23, in which case the MiG-29 (and RD-33) would look very good, reliability and safety wise. The IAF are comparing the MiG-29 to the Mirage 2000 - MiG look not so good...
    That still does not answer the overwhelming majority of engines failing eve before their modest overhaul times (for vanilla RD-33 that is). That, is something I have not ever encountered in the operations of MiG-29s in USSR/RuAF, and it operates quite a bit more than the IAF does.
    Or other "significant" operators for that matter.
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  12. #72
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    We need to have hard statistical data and records of the actual number of premature in-flight shutdowns and catastrophic failures per 100,000 hours of flight or so, before we can actually draw a conclusion on the RD-33 reliability. Are these records available for the IAF, Malaysian AF, RuAF?
    Patrick

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Levsha View Post
    Probably because the Soviet/Russian AFs are comparing the reliability of the MiG-29 to its predecessors: MiG-21, MiG-23, in which case the MiG-29 (and RD-33) would look very good, reliability and safety wise. The IAF are comparing the MiG-29 to the Mirage 2000 - MiG look not so good...
    Not really Levsha. The CAG report that was quoted in the article I posted, simply stated that the engines failed prematurely- meaning earlier than their advertised MTBF figures. The IAF wasn’t comparing the RD-33 to the MP-53 of the Mirage since they have different MTBFs altogether. The issue was simply that the RD-33 didn’t meet the reliability specifications that it supposedly had. This issue was true of the radar as well- premature failure. Something that was later on seen on the MiG-21 Bison’s Kopyo radar too- they failed prematurely and never really met the advertised MTBF of 150 hours.

  14. #74
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    IAF Chief Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne had a flight test of the Rafale at St.Dizier air base.




  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    That still does not answer the overwhelming majority of engines failing eve before their modest overhaul times (for vanilla RD-33 that is). That, is something I have not ever encountered in the operations of MiG-29s in USSR/RuAF, and it operates quite a bit more than the IAF does.
    Or other "significant" operators for that matter.
    there is other major factor which playing it part in engine life

    IMHO weather is one of the largest factor. you can find every kind of weather in India from high & dry to hot & humid or dusty weather of north india
    east or west india is the best


  16. #76
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    Even couple of Mig-29 operated by Bangladesh , has service issues and at point of time they were even wanted to get rid of them , before they decided against it
    Brand New LCA TEJAS site is online

    WWW.LCA-TEJAS.ORG

  17. #77
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    Not related to aviation, so I do not wish to have any discussion on this matter, but posted this as a news. Anyone wishes to discuss the matter can create a new thread in General Discussion and all those interested can continue there. I posted it only to get some exposure to the news article and if need be a new thread be started in general discussion. This same article was posted by another member @Kids Corner last week. But immatured moderators pulled it down and no one probably knew it or the member re-posted it. In a sense this "news" was censored.

    Quote Originally Posted by [url=http://www.israeldefense.com/?CategoryID=474&ArticleID=991]Israel Defense[/url]
    According to reports in Colombia, the government and military initially examined the procurement of the Indian Arjun tank, but quickly learned that its capabilities were limited.

    Developed within the framework of a multi-year project, India encountered difficulties producing the Arjun and at one point turned to Israel to help solve the problems.

    Produced by the IDF in cooperation with some of the leading defense industries, the IDF produced the Merkava for its own use. The meetings with the Colombians discussed the potential procurement of 25 to 40 tanks. The cost of the Merkava tank has never been published, but experts estimate it is approximately six million dollars.

  18. #78
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    India’s Version of Sukhoi T-50 Delayed by Two Years

    The joint Indo-Russian project to produce a fifth-generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) for the Indian Air Force is facing a two-year delay. It will now take nine years instead of the stipulated seven to develop. The Indian Air Force attributes the delay to Hindustan Aeronautics (HAL), which has a workshare of 25 percent in the program.

    The two-seat FGFA is based on the single-seat Sukhoi T-50 PAKFA. HAL is tasked with supplying designs for the tandem seating and cockpit displays, none of which have been provided on time, a senior air force official told AIN. HAL is also responsible for navigation and countermeasure dispensing. Indian junior defense minister MM Pallam Raju recently confirmed the delay to Parliament, commenting, “The fifth-generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019 [instead of 2017], following which series production will start.” India and Russia concluded the $295 million preliminary design contract for the FGFA project in December 2010, during Russian President Dmitry Medvedev’s visit to India.

    There are also concerns the FGFA will exceed its current estimated $6 billion development budget. The unit production price is predicted to be between $93- and $97 million. India will acquire 214 aircraft, making the total cost of the FGFA project at least $26 billion.

    The 30-ton FGFA will be “a swing-role fighter with highly advanced avionics, giving 360-degree situational awareness, stealth to increase survivability and smart weapons,” said now-retired Indian Air Force Chief P.K. Naik. Capable of covering long ranges without refueling, it will feature supercruise along with advanced mission computers. The Indian Air Force has specified 43 improvements to the design following its observation of flying trials at the Zhukovsky airbase.
    "A map does you no good if you don't know where you are"

  19. #79
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    Buy F 35
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  20. #80
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    No, you'll need air superiority before you can bomb, and besides,
    FGFA is work for HAL while F-35 isn't.
    F-35 isn't even cheaper to buy, although obviously cheaper to operate.
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    F-35 isn't even cheaper to buy, although obviously cheaper to operate.
    You obviously know more than the designers or future operators themselves, then

  22. #82
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    Yes, if they suggest PAK-FA is cheaper to operate than F-35
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  23. #83
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    They have no idea. Noone has as of yet.

  24. #84
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    Roughly half the operational cost is fuel, and PAK-FA has almost twice the thrust, - almost twice the fuel burn
    the second most costly part is engine maintenance, and here PAK-FA has exactly twice as many engines to service. - exactly twice the maintenance

    In both instances, there is reason to believe that F135 gets the edge in terms of cost, - more efficient & better durability
    so in fact the cost is likely even higher for PAK-FA in operational cost
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  25. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by obligatory View Post
    Roughly half the operational cost is fuel, and PAK-FA has almost twice the thrust, - almost twice the fuel burn
    the second most costly part is engine maintenance, and here PAK-FA has exactly twice as many engines to service. - exactly twice the maintenance

    In both instances, there is reason to believe that F135 gets the edge in terms of cost, - more efficient & better durability
    so in fact the cost is likely even higher for PAK-FA in operational cost
    I agree with you here partly. The PAK-FA with its twin engines will naturally have a bit higher costs for maintenance and fuel. Regarding efficiency and durability, it’s too early to say which is better.

  26. #86
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    Finally an agreement has been signed. Now they need to begin work on this program without any additional delays. The workshare agreement terms were the ones that were most contested and caused delays earlier..I hope they have been resolved to the MoD's satisfaction now.

    link



    HAL Statement: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd has signed a tripartite General Contract with United Aircraft Corporation -Transport Aircraft (UAC-TA), their Russian partner and their JV, Multirole Transport Aircraft Ltd (MTAL) for the Multirole Transport Aircraft (MTA) project.

    HAL will carry out the design & development of its workshare of MTA at Aircraft R&D (ARDC) Centre at Bangalore while its Transport Aircraft Division (TAD) at Kanpur will manufacture the prototypes. Serial production will take place at Kanpur where dedicated facilities are being set up. HAL's other R&D Centres and manufacturing divisions will share development of systems & LRUs and manufacture of components, sub assemblies and composite structure. HAL will showcase its expertise in design of aircraft as well as systems, manufacturing & flight testing while jointly working with the Russian team in Moscow as well as in India.

    The Indian and Russian governments had earlier signed an Inter Governmental Agreement for joint design, development & production of MTA on 50:50 sharing basis and had decided to form a JV between HAL, UAC-TA & Rosoboronexport to execute the project. The primary objective is to achieve self-reliance in design & development and production of aircraft of this size and also to manage the programme with international collaboration and a large number of global suppliers.

    The aircraft will be designed for the roles of cargo/troop transportation; para-drop /air drop of supplies including Low Altitude Parachute Extraction System (LAPES). The joint effort seeks to meet a requirement of 100 aircraft for the Russian Air Force, 45 aircraft to the IAF and 60 for export. Total requirement for the present is 205.

    The MTA project preliminary design will start immediately after signing the follow-up contract on preliminary design on which tripartite discussions have been concluded.

  27. #87
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    Interesting, what the Junior DM's report to parliament alludes to is that Sukhoi's PAK-FA programme is running 2 years behind schedule- realistic RuAF IOC has slipped to 2018/19. Remember, the initial FGFA deliveries will be single seaters near-identical to their Russian counterparts (ACM Browne has already confirmed 166 single seaters and 48 2 seaters) also the IAF's single seaters will be manufactured in Russia.

    The 2 seaters, to be co-designed and exclusively manufactured by HAL- will not be joining the IAF until much later than 2019. That HAL wrist-slapping is just hokum. This is the first time preliminary unit costs have surfaced ($93-$97m) and I don't know how accurate the "specified 43 improvements" statement is, but clearly there is much more to come for the T-50/FGFA.

  28. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by mirza2003 View Post
    there is other major factor which playing it part in engine life

    IMHO weather is one of the largest factor. you can find every kind of weather in India from high & dry to hot & humid or dusty weather of north india
    Air Chief Marshal Browne Leaves for France Amidst Talks for India's Largest-Ever Defence Deal: XairForces News

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    I agree with you here partly. The PAK-FA with its twin engines will naturally have a bit higher costs for maintenance and fuel. Regarding efficiency and durability, it’s too early to say which is better.
    Too early to say, but a reasonably safe bet to predict

  30. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinblade View Post
    Too early to say, but a reasonably safe bet to predict
    Out of curiosity why?

    Russian engines have almost always been competitive with their best contemporaries in efficiency. Just look at the much maligned RD-33s fuel burn numbers, and thrust that it provides.

    In terms of engine life before overhaul, Soviet legacy engines suffer a lower number by design and doctrine. No reason why a new engine would be constricted by those.
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