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Thread: Indian Air Force Thread - 19

  1. #661
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    India signs deal with GE for 99 F-414 engines for the Tejas Mk2, plus 100 options.

    link



    That works out to $54 million for 99 engines..that's a LOT cheaper than reports in the past that put the F-414 engine price at around $1 million + apiece..and this with ToT for maintaining the engines in India.
    I think Vikas is right, you are missing a zero there

  2. #662
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    Quote Originally Posted by vikasrehman View Post
    You might have a zero missing there, i.e. $540 million?
    oops! got the conversion from crores to millions wrong! you're right, its $540 million..that works out to $5.4 million each, including ToT, and assembly of the engines at HAL facilities..will increase the cost of the Tejas Mk2 by a significant amount over the Tejas Mk1.

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    LSP-8 is nearing its first flight. This is the final Limited Series Production aircraft and has been built to the Final IOC standards.



    link

    [B]The limited series production (LSP-8) version of India’s Light Combat Aircraft Tejas, is said to have incorporated all features sought by the Indian Air Force (IAF), so that it qualifies for the initial operational clearance (IOC).

    Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) head P S Subramaniam told Express that Tejas LSP-8, the last aircraft from the test flightline, is tailor-made to suite pilot’s needs.

    “All designs are final. All systems are as per the final IOC standards and have matured with the aircraft,” he added.

    The ADA head said building of LSP-8 aircraft, its first flights and subsequent tests will be the last stepping stone towards the programme entering the series production phase. The IAF has placed an initial order of 20 Tejas.

    According to Subramaniam it has pressure-refueling capabilities. Meaning the entire aircraft the LSP-8 can be filled with fuel in just 5-6 minutes as against the 30-minutes taken for gravity filling.


    “Tejas LSP-8 is an all-weather, day and night capability fighter and with very maintenance-friendly features. It is an aircraft built based on the needs expressed by test pilots,” he said.

    He said the pilot-vehicle interface features supported by avionics software are excellent in LSP-8 and as desired by the users.

    “The new aircraft is very robust with reliable flight control system. The aircraft has good compatibility with ground support and ground-handling equipment. I can now confidenty say that all that is required for an aircraft to get inducted into the Service is built into LSP-8,” Subramaniam said.

    When asked whether the induction of Tejas into the IAF will further slip, considering that the IAF pilots might come back with more requirements after the user evaluation trials, the ADA chief said: “The feedback what we are getting from the test pilots who have flown Tejas is excellent. Every stage we had pilots closely working with us.”
    The pressure refueling feature was demonstrated by the Gripen during field trials in India and had impressed the IAF greatly..this is most likely a requirement that came up after that demonstration..very useful feature for quick turn-around time on the ground to increase sortie rates. Glad to see that maintenance friendliness is now taking priority as well. That is a very important feature of any aircraft and if it works, will endear the aircraft to the technicians who'll work on it and reduce maintenance costs.

    need to see what the latest cockpit looks like and what new Pilot-Vehicle interface features have been introduced based on TP feedback. This interview again confirms that TPs love the aircraft.

  4. #664
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    By Anantha Krishnan M
    Express News Service


    Bangalore: The Indian Army will be handed over the first two weapon system integrated (WSI) version of Advanced Light Helicopter (ALH-Mk-IV) Rudra, during Aero India 2013. Confirming to Express on Thursday, Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) chairman R K Tyagi said that Rudra will also be available for customer demonstration flights at show. “Rudra will definitely add more teeth to Indian Army and we will roll out more production units to the squadron,”Tyagi said. Express had earlier reported that around 70 Rudras will fly out of HAL to meet Army’s initial requirements.
    “In addition to the redundant flight critical systems, IR suppressor, armour panels, crashworthy features, self-sealing fuel tanks enhance the survivability of the helicopter in the battlefield environment,” Tyagi said. Rudra can carry a mix of weapons, providing it with capability to search and destroy any target. Systems like electro-optic pod, helmet-mounted sight, fixed sight facilitating firing of the onboard weapons (20 mm turret gun, 70mm rockets and Air-to-Air missiles), makes Rudra an unforgiving machine.
    He said Rudra’s rigid rotors have extremely high agility and manoeuvrability. With its higher powered engine, the chopper can undertake missions up to altitudes of 6 km. “With such capabilities, Rudra is unmatched in the world, in its class,” claims Tyagi.
    Tyagi confirmed that HAL has plans to integrate additional new systems on Rudra, including Infra Red jammer, Data Link, obstacle avoidance system (for Army), wire cutter (for IAF) and NBC (Nuclear Biological and Chemical) sensors.
    When asked about ALH Dhruv’s (earlier version of Rudra) export status, Tyagi said three more countries have shown interest in these choppers. Over 130 Dhruv helicopters are in operation now, with Indian Army flying 110 and 12 with Indian civil operators. Ecuador, Nepal, Mauritius and Maldives also operate Dhruv choppers.
    http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01...oppers-to.html

  5. #665
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    Seems like project 'AWACS-India' is gathering some steam. A report by the uncrowned champions of DDM, the press trust of India.
    http://www.business-standard.com/gen...ritory/114563/

    India takes up AWACS programme, can penetrate enemy territory
    Press Trust of India / Bangalore January 25, 2013, 16:15

    India has just taken up development of the Rs 6,000 crore Airborne Warning and Control System (AWACS) that will have the capability to penetrate "longer distances" enemy territory by way of radars and electronic warfare systems without venturing into the region physically, a top defence official said today.
    Interesting tidbit from this report:-

    Meanwhile, Saraswat also said that the DRDO has conducted a flight of "guided bomb". "It's a bomb which can fly for about 40-50 or even more kilometres in a guided mode and it can be released from an aircraft".

    He said the guided bomb is a totally indigenous effort, from designing, development and realisation including explosive content in them, as also guidance and control.
    I remember one such exhibit from last AeroIndia by a Gurgaon based firm, Basant Aerospace, called 'Smart wing adapter kit for general purpose bombs' or simply SWAK with a range of 80Km. I wonder if they are related.

    Last edited by Mpacha; 28th January 2013 at 08:29. Reason: Image too large.

  6. #666
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    It reminds me of the older Cobras that carried a light caliber turret.
    Go Huskers!

  7. #667
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    [IMG]


    2 LCH prototypes

    By Anantha Krishnan M
    Express News Service

    Guruvayoor: Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) said on Friday that it has completed development flights on two prototypes of Light Combat Helicopter (LCH), towards basic system checks, air inlet survey and performance. Test flights for performance, handling qualities and measurement of loads have also been carried out at Bangalore and Chennai. “The sea-level trials carried out at Chennai were as per the script and the baseline reference data has been acquired. Towards complying crashworthy requirements, landing gear drop tests have been completed satisfactorily. Breakaway fuselage has been built and limit-load testing has been completed successfully,” HAL chairman R K Tyagi told Express.
    When asked about the feedback from prototype flight testing, Tyagi said that various design improvements have been implemented to fine tune handling qualities, speed and vibration. “Further flight testing is under progress towards development and certification of basic systems. So, far both LCH technology demonstrators (TD-1 & TD-2) have completed 85 and 83 flights respectively,” Tyagi said.
    To a query regarding the technology challenges being faced by HAL towards developing LCH, HAL chairman said that currently his team is focusing on validating design objectives, based on flight tests. “Based on the flight test results, necessary design improvements are being made. We haven’t faced any major technical problems so far,” he claimed. The LCH production variants are planned during the year 2015-16.
    HAL plans to build the third prototype this year, incorporating all improvements. The integration of indigenous cockpit display system (Integrated Architecture and Display System), mission sensors and weapon systems are planned towards initial operational clearance (IOC) of LCH. “That’s the focus right now to get the IOC in place,” Tyagi added. HAL is yet to name the beast, but would do so soon, in consultation with its customer.
    During the upcoming Aero India 2013, the LCH TD-2 (in camouflaged colours) will be at the static display area, while TD-1 will be doing the flying duties for HAL.
    http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2013/01...-on-right.html
    Last edited by Mpacha; 28th January 2013 at 08:30. Reason: Image too large.

  8. #668
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    This is a misunderstanding of the meaning of CEP (Circular Error Probable). There is no relationship between the CEP & whether the target is destroyed or not. CEP is not a measure of the radius of destructive effect, or whether a target is hit, but an indication of the accuracy of a weapon. It is the radius of a circle, centred on the aiming point, within which 50% of weapons will land.

    CEP of bombs dropped by the RAF during early night raids in WW2 was about 5 km. Obviously, that was not a target hit.
    You have misunderstood the context of what I stated, let me explain. The usual practise is for weapons designers to keep the CEP in mind when designing the warhead and fuzing. So, if the munition strikes within the designated CEP, validated via actual test results, and the shot was taken keeping the CEP in mind, a well designed weapon and one properly employed, knowing the CEP may destroy the target. Which is what I meant. So, not just CEP alone. But if the CEP is more than what the warheads destructive radius is, then its an ineffective weapon. Because not even the 50% probability may help as the errors accumulate.

    Having said that, the discussion here is about a PGM. CEP is not normally used nowadays for PGMs - the guidance with these systems automatically raises the bar, beyond the "will strike within a circle of x metre radius, 50% of the time", as well it should. Other measures are used such as SSKP - single shot kill probability, which takes both the guidance of the system getting the munition to within x meters of the target, anywhere between 80-90% of the time AND the warhead/fuzing system having an effective radius taking into account that guidance error and a bit to spare, all translating to an effective SSKP of what the user asks for. The guidance effectiveness for guided missiles for instance takes into account stuff such as clutter (environmental and manmade aka jamming), so the overall weapons system effectiveness is what matters. In the case of the Sudarshan, while they use the CEP metric, it & most other PGMs will be expected to routinely (the usual 80% figure) hit near the target within a certain "miss distance" which has to take into account the destructive radius of that 1000 lb warhead. As long as the guidance works (laser pulse from a designator). The next phase for the Sudarshan is to improve the guidance further - which depends right now the reliability of the laser designation. With the guidance incorporating INS + GPS/GLONASS (for instance see: (SATCOM module e.g. http://www.spsaviation.net/news/?id=...d-over-to-DRDO and MINGS see:http://www.sainiksamachar.nic.in/eng...c01-11/h11.htm) the effectiveness of the guidance schema will be improved further.

    Hope that clarifieS...
    Last edited by Teer; 26th January 2013 at 18:13.

  9. #669
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    This strikes me as a confusing & pointless use of the term CEP.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
    Justinian

  10. #670
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    As expected, Rafale might have an Indianised EW suite on-board.
    http://newindianexpress.com/nation/article1437528.ece

    Sources told Express that the proposed MoU, likely to be signed during Aero India 2013, will be different from BEL’s existing JV with Thales. The MoU will get propelled when India’s Ministry of Defence signs the Rafale deal officially with Dassault. The MoU will enable BEL get onboard Rafale for the integration of the synthetic aperture radars (SAR) and electronic warfare (EW) suits, among others.
    Guys, keep an eye out for details (especially you, Teer )

  11. #671
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    Any word whether Indian Rafale's will have AESA or not?

  12. #672
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    Quote Originally Posted by Berkut View Post
    Any word whether Indian Rafale's will have AESA or not?
    AESA radar was one of the most vital requirements of the MMRCA. Rafale has anyhow moved on the AESA radars now, with the last PESA equipped Rafale rolled out this week (link).

  13. #673
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    There was a news flash on defense aerospace a few weeks ago that the MMRCA was going to have a massive number bump... has anything come out?
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinblade View Post
    AESA radar was one of the most vital requirements of the MMRCA. Rafale has anyhow moved on the AESA radars now, with the last PESA equipped Rafale rolled out this week (link).
    Yes, i know they have started with AESA on them now, hence i asked. But thanks, i didn't realize it was part of requirement.

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    This strikes me as a confusing & pointless use of the term CEP.
    Its confusing and pointless if you want to be pedantic... On the other hand, if you want to understand the context in what I wrote what I did, that's also your choice. It boils down to this, a very low/ negligible CEP plus a good fuze+warhead design usually translates to a good SSKP, which is the final metric of effectiveness.

    Both references for SSKP.
    http://tarmak007.blogspot.in/2011/12...a-seekers.html
    http://www.airforce-magazine.com/Mag...0310bombs.aspx

    And, the combination of both accuracy + destructive effect:

    In 1965, Davis was looking for a weapon with the accuracy to hit routinely within 30 feet of a target and powerful enough to destroy it.
    Of these, about 5,100 were direct hits, and another 4,000 had CEP of 25 feet.

    “For point targets and in good weather conditions, these weapons had nearly a single-shot kill probability,” said Gen. William W. Momyer, former commander of 7th Air Force, in his book Airpower in Three Wars. “If the target could be seen and the target was vulnerable to the explosive power of the weapon, the probability of damage with a single weapon was 80 to 90 percent.”
    Its not that complex really. You can design for a decent SSKP by doing a variety of things. But @ a simple level here, plot the CEP and in the process you will keep a record of the miss distance for all the tests & plot them anyhow on the graph. See the max miss distance, and also calculate the miss distance which covers 80-90% of the shots, and then design a warhead & fuzing system which can still damage/destroy the target for that 80-90%. You went and got yourself a decent SSKP. So if you have a very low CEP, then by extension even the distribution for the larger number of rounds (80-90%) is likely to be low, and the munition is very likely to destroy the target provided you took the warhead design into account. Nobody designs for CEP in isolation, because then, it is pointless. But it is usually given as a standard figure because, it is an accepted metric and its a done thing.

    Twinblade,

    Seriously - if they do that, I will be mega surprised. One of the focus areas of the MMRCA was to get aircraft asap with the MMRCA...replacing the Spectra?

    Seems doubtful, especially given the Mirage 2000 upgrade does not have an Indian made EW suite and will have the standard ICMS, again to save time and integration expense.

    Perhaps they are referring to yet another Indian jammer being integrated onto the aircraft as an additional payload for enhanced coverage. All the latest Indian ones are integral to the aircraft (RWJ etc) but two were displayed as wingtop podded units for the Super 30 MKI model. Still don't know whether those were from DARE or the Russian SAP pods though.

    I wonder what AKM is referring to when he says BEL will get onboard for integration of SAR and EW suits(sic.)... since the SAR payload for UAVs is still under development by LRDE and a podded version is not (yet available) and the RBE-2 AA will itself have SAR.

    If they are talking of integrating Israeli/third party SAR, why do they need BEL for that, confusing.
    Last edited by Teer; 27th January 2013 at 18:53.

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    Su-30 update

    When the upgrade? Why the long wait?

    During his inaugural press conference on October 5, 2012, Air Chief Marshal NAK Browne said that modernization of the Su-30MKI fleet will start after all the aircraft on order have been delivered.

    In other words, since the Sukhoi of the current mark is still a fair performer but IAF is facing declining numbers elsewhere with declining numbers and staggered upgrades, the decision is to build up Sukhoi strength to 270 and commence upgrades only then.
    Drat.
    Anyways with the IAF using the Su-30MKI force to stabilize the fleet and build up numbers..

    Is the deal for the upgrade, done./serious etc.?
    2010: Overall Project Finalized for first 50 aircraft
    • India Today reported in its June, 2010 issue that the project to modernize the initial batch of Su-30s delivered to India by Russia has been finalized.
    • The aircraft are due for major overhaul and Russia has proposed incorporation of the latest technologies during the major overhaul.
    • Defence Ministry sources told Economic Times on July 4, 2010:
    • "As part of IAF's modernisation program, we are going to upgrade 50 Sukhoi-30 MKI aircraft with help of original equipment manufacturers (OEMs) from Russia.
    • "Su-30 MKIs have been inducted into the IAF in four phases. The ones to be upgraded are from the first phase and the project is likely to be completed in the next three to four years," they added.
    • Of the 50 aircraft, around five would be sent to the Russian facilities while the remaining would undergo upgrading within India, they said.
    • "The airframe of these aircraft would also be strengthened to equip them with air-launched version of the 290 km range BrahMos supersonic cruise missile," the sources said.
    2011: And, a year later, deal to be signed for 42 last batch, additional upgraded Sukhois when Indian PM visits Moscow
    http://www.indianexpress.com/news/pm...sukhois/888064
    The new version is expected to include a new cockpit, an upgraded radar and certain stealth features to avoid radar detection. Significantly, the upgraded Sukhoi-30 MKIs will be able to carry a heavier weapons load, especially the airborne version of the Brahmos cruise missile. India is also looking to upgrade most of its SU-30 MKIs in the long run.
    2012: And at the time of Putins visit to India
    [quote] NEW DELHI: India will soon ink defence deals worth around Rs 25,000 crore with Russia, including two mega ones for 42 more Sukhoi-30MKI fighters and 59 additional Mi-17 V5 armed helicopters.[/quote[
    While India has no plans to acquire more than 272 Sukhois, it has an upgrade plan to convert a bulk of them into 'Super Sukhois' in the years ahead with more advanced avionics, weapons and AESA (active electronically scanned array) radars. "Earlier, the plan was to upgrade 80 of them into 'Super Sukhois' at the cost of around Rs 10,900 crore. Now, the plan is being re-drawn," said the source.
    Seems like the IAF is ok with the delay and just wants to build up the numbers for now, since the current Sukhoi is hardly obsolete and its tech is fairly better than what competitors field today operationally.
    So, this Super 30 program might start only 4 years from now by which time HAL would have delivered another 76 aircraft, allowing the IAF to reach the 242 figure allowing them to spare the earliest airframes for series upgrades.
    If the 42 last batch Sukhois, originally planned as Super Sukhois apart from the first upgraded 50, come upgraded directly from Russia, then it would automatically, boost IAF firepower immensely.

    And on numbers produced so far:

    • of 269 aircraft planned, 272 ordered, 3 crashed
    http://hal-india.com/SU-30_MKI_Contract_24-12-12.asp

    Delivered
    • 119 by HAL, 50 from Russia, delivered
    • So thats 169 delivered, three crashed, so 166 Su-30 MKIs.
    • At 18 aircraft per squadron, thats 9 squadrons worth, with 4 spares

    On Order
    • Another 82 (ordered) from Russia with kits to be built up in India, percentage of indigenization at HAL unless IAF asks for majority built up, for quick assembly and induction. Plus 21 remaining from HALs order.
    • That’s another 5 squadrons, with 13 aircraft spare
    • Overall, 14 squadrons in future, with 17 aircraft spares (depute 3 to TACDE, keep rest as reserve, at central level). Or raise a last understrength squadron.


    So, IAF today, per Press Reports and weblinks:

    • In Feb 2012, IAF had seven Sukhoi squadrons - 2 in Lohegaon in Pune (20, 30), 1 in Jodhpur (31), 2 in Bareilly (8, 24), and 1 each in Tezpur (2) and Chabua (102).
    • It has aircraft worth 9 squadrons today.
    • Of the two possible raisings, one probably went to Jodhpur and another to Halwara as that was the plan per IAF reports in press.

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teer View Post
    Twinblade,

    Seriously - if they do that, I will be mega surprised. One of the focus areas of the MMRCA was to get aircraft asap with the MMRCA...replacing the Spectra?

    Seems doubtful, especially given the Mirage 2000 upgrade does not have an Indian made EW suite and will have the standard ICMS, again to save time and integration expense.

    Perhaps they are referring to yet another Indian jammer being integrated onto the aircraft as an additional payload for enhanced coverage. All the latest Indian ones are integral to the aircraft (RWJ etc) but two were displayed as wingtop podded units for the Super 30 MKI model. Still don't know whether those were from DARE or the Russian SAP pods though.

    I wonder what AKM is referring to when he says BEL will get onboard for integration of SAR and EW suits(sic.)... since the SAR payload for UAVs is still under development by LRDE and a podded version is not (yet available) and the RBE-2 AA will itself have SAR.

    If they are talking of integrating Israeli/third party SAR, why do they need BEL for that, confusing.

    If I were to risk a guess, the first batch would be equipped with standard spectra. From subsequent blocks onwards they might replace the peripherals in Spectra by local substitutes (RWR, MLD, SSTRU, LWS) while keeping the core from the original spectra. I guess it will have to be one of those 'wait and watch' news snippets.

  18. #678
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    SPECTRA is supposed to be one of the best EW suites replacing it with something homegrown will be stupid.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

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    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    SPECTRA is supposed to be one of the best EW suites replacing it with something homegrown will be stupid.
    The IAF will have any day more control over a homegrown suite and it will be preferable if it comes with similar performance. Only issues are the cost and time involved in terms of integration. Its not a joke to replace an integrated system with another one, especially when the system is built into the low observable airframe.

  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Teer View Post
    • Of the two possible raisings, one probably went to Jodhpur and another to Halwara as that was the plan per IAF reports in press.
    You are definitely right about Halwara. This is 2013 sat photo from Google maps.
    (c) Google

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    Su-30 Update

    Teer,

    With reserves, there are 20 aircraft per squadron and not 18. So 166 Su-30s would translate into 8 squadrons worth of aircraft and not 9. Indeed, there are 8 operational Su-30 squadrons: Nos. 2, 8, 20, 24, 30, 31, 102, and 220. Of the 6 remaining Su-30s, some would be with TACDE and the rest would be with the ninth squadron under raising. There will eventually be 13 Su-30 squadrons.

  22. #682
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinblade View Post
    As expected, Rafale might have an Indianised EW suite on-board.
    http://newindianexpress.com/nation/article1437528.ece



    Guys, keep an eye out for details (especially you, Teer )
    That article doesn't say that Rafales for India will have an homegrown EW suite on-board, it says that BEL will sign an MoU with Dassault to implement SAR and the EW suite, probably a concession from the MoD toward the private sector (as requested by Dassault) for the ToT instead of having HAL do it.

    Given the fact that SPECTRA is integrated into the Rafale and fused to its sensors, it would take a lot of money, testing etc. to integrate a new system. It would be quite pointless since Dassault/Thales are supposed to provide India full access and transfert of the technology.
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  23. #683
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mildave View Post
    It would be quite pointless since Dassault/Thales are supposed to provide India full access and transfert of the technology.
    As I understand it the figure is 60% ToT, and something tells me SPECTRA is part of that other 40%.
    "I’ve come to realise that power can be corrosive [....] it can dim your vision." -- George W. Bush, 2013

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rii View Post
    As I understand it the figure is 60% ToT, and something tells me SPECTRA is part of that other 40%.
    Any sources available on that? I've always heard Dassault/Thales saying they would give full ToT on Spectra and RBE to India, Brazil and the UAE, allowing the customer to reprogram them as they see fit (of course I'm aware it sounds better in words that it does in reality...)
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

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    Its more likely that the MoU between BEL & Dassault/Thales is a production/licensing agreement for producing parts of SPECTRA.

    The Indian version of Rafale would of course be customized with some Indian tech (such as Indian Data Link) so that it is compatible with the rest of IAF.

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    still don't know why they want to put two M88/F414-class engines in a '5th gen' platform to be fielded closer to 2030...
    (when Super Hornet should start to be phased out for NGAD or whatever they want to call it anyways)
    the rationale for a lighter weight medium fighter vs. PAKFA is that it is cheaper, still using two engines runs against that,
    much better to have a single engine F135 style, it could very well be a derivative of the stage 2 PAKFA engine,
    at least as a stage 1 engine for flight trials+++, while an entirely new top notch engine is developed.
    engine commonality with PAKFA would of course further promote economics, the raison daitre for a lighter fighter.
    with dual assembly lines in India and a partner like Russia, exports would be more than possible,
    but reaching the affordability goals will be the #1 enabler of that...

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    AMCA is home-grown and would use kaveri engines. Kaveri engine should be easily maintained in India while a foreign engine would need components imported from other countries.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Monkey View Post
    still don't know why they want to put two M88/F414-class engines in a '5th gen' platform to be fielded closer to 2030...
    ..because it is intended to be Rafale/Eurofighter/MiG-29 -ish in size.

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    Anything about FGFA surfaced yet ?

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