Indian Air Force Thread - 19

[JangBoGo]

I see zero Rafale deliveries from HAL before 2016. The current MiG-21 numbers are close to 150.

If we need any valuable amount of Rafale, the number of units from France needs to be increased. There is no chance of HAL making any significant numbers before 2020. There would be a cost increase for sure, but if we need numbers, we need to increase direct import from Dassault.

[BlackArcher]

I saw something shocking:

You lost half your fleet in accidents
http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Sec...7061348233687/

yes it is a high number. But for comparison's sake, the Luftwaffe inducted 916 F-104 Starfighters of which they lost 292 and they didn't even operate the F-104 as long as the IAF has been operating the MiG-21s of which several squadrons are still in service. The Luftwaffe retired their F-104s in the 1980s itself and if the IAF had done so with their MiG-21s, the attrition numbers would've been lower as well.

BTW, the Luftwaffe's F-84 attrition rate was even worse than their F-104 attrition rate.

[swerve]

BTW, the Luftwaffe's F-84 attrition rate was even worse than their F-104 attrition rate.

This is probably true of every air force that operated both. There is a long-term trend for accident rates to fall, among both military & civil aircraft. This is due to many factors, including the inherent reliability of the aircraft, maintenance standards, equipment fitted (flying visual only in north or central European winters is a very dangerous activity), & level of pilot training. Rapidly expanding air forces (as the Luftwaffe was 50 years ago) tend to have higher rates than the same forces at other times.

New types are generally safer than old: F-104 was safer than F-84. For any given type, accident rates generally fall the longer it's in service (more experience operating it, upgrades to the aircraft & ground equipment): F-16s are much safer now than 30 years ago.

Comparing recent MiG-21 accident rates with 1960s F-104 accident rates thus doesn't tell us anything useful about the safety (or otherwise) of the Luftwaffe in the 1960s. What it can tell us is whether the IAF is operating its MiG-21s safely. The accident rate (per n flight hours is probably the best comparison) should be much lower for the MiG-21 than the F-104. The IAF has had 40 years of experience with the aircraft (F-104 was fairly new to the Luftwaffe in the 1960s), development of it, & improvements in equipment both in the aircraft & on the ground, to benefit from. Any difference in 1960s rates between the two types should be dwarfed by those factors.

[BlackArcher]

This is probably true of every air force that operated both. There is a long-term trend for accident rates to fall, among both military & civil aircraft. This is due to many factors, including the inherent reliability of the aircraft, maintenance standards, equipment fitted (flying visual only in north or central European winters is a very dangerous activity), & level of pilot training. Rapidly expanding air forces (as the Luftwaffe was 50 years ago) tend to have higher rates than the same forces at other times.

New types are generally safer than old: F-104 was safer than F-84. For any given type, accident rates generally fall the longer it's in service (more experience operating it, upgrades to the aircraft & ground equipment): F-16s are much safer now than 30 years ago.

Comparing recent MiG-21 accident rates with 1960s F-104 accident rates thus doesn't tell us anything useful about the safety (or otherwise) of the Luftwaffe in the 1960s. What it can tell us is whether the IAF is operating its MiG-21s safely. The accident rate (per n flight hours is probably the best comparison) should be much lower for the MiG-21 than the F-104. The IAF has had 40 years of experience with the aircraft (F-104 was fairly new to the Luftwaffe in the 1960s), development of it, & improvements in equipment both in the aircraft & on the ground, to benefit from. Any difference in 1960s rates between the two types should be dwarfed by those factors.

the IAF's MiG-21 attrition rate was affected in large part due to the fact that it was the de-facto AJT for the IAF's pupil pilots for more than 2 decades due to the absence of a dedicated design like the Hawk or Alpha jet.

Pilots were transitioning from the Kiran to the MiG-21 MOFTU and then going to their respective squadrons, and the transition was not easy, considering the MiG-21 was a tricky airplane to land and had some shortcomings in flight too, where the pilots could depart from controlled flight very quickly. Add the high pilot workload of these older generation fighters and the combination of pilot workload and non-carefree flying characteristics made such fighters dangerous for novice pilots.

India also has weather as a big factor in air crashes, especially in the North East. Plus, there have been bird hits due to abattoirs being located near air bases as well as issues with the aircraft (which MiG quickly attributed to the IAF, but in reality was partly due to design issues and poor spares supply that led the IAF to source them from Eastern European and former CIS nations.

[BlackArcher]

IAF to look to procure 2 additional second-hand Mirage-2000s and get them upgraded to the -5 standards.

link

NEW DELHI: Indian Air Force is planning to buy two second-hand Mirage 2000 combat aircraft to make up for the losses suffered by it in crashes earlier this year.

IAF, which has signed a deal with France for upgradation of 51 Mirage 2000 aircraft, lost two of these planes in crashes in February and March after which its fleet was reduced to 49.

"We are planning to procure these aircraft from the French or some other Air Force which still operates these aircraft in its inventory as the production line of Mirages was shut down a few years ago," IAF officials said here.

They said if defence ministry approves this proposal, the IAF would buy the two second-hand Mirages and put them for upgrades to the Mirage-2000-5 standards.

Under the $2.3 billion upgrade deal with France, the Mirages of the IAF will be upgraded to the '-5' standards.

The first two aircraft are already in France for upgradation under the supervision of an IAF team and work is progressing, they said.

The remaining aircraft would be upgraded at HAL facilities in India with the help of French officials in next ten years.

IAF operates three squadrons of Mirages and all of them are deployed at the Maharajpur air base.

Post their upgradation, IAF sources said there was a possibility of one squadron of the combat aircraft being deployed at some other base also.

[swerve]

the IAF's MiG-21 attrition rate was affected in large part due to the fact that it was the de-facto AJT for the IAF's pupil pilots for more than 2 decades due to the absence of a dedicated design like the Hawk or Alpha jet.

Pilots were transitioning from the Kiran to the MiG-21 MOFTU and then going to their respective squadrons, and the transition was not easy, considering the MiG-21 was a tricky airplane to land and had some shortcomings in flight too, where the pilots could depart from controlled flight very quickly. Add the high pilot workload of these older generation fighters and the combination of pilot workload and non-carefree flying characteristics made such fighters dangerous for novice pilots.

Wasn't this largely due to the inability or unwillingness of politicians for many years to approve the purchase of Hawks or aircraft of similar performance, to provide a good transition from lower performance trainers to the MiG-21?

[BlackArcher]

IAF's No.220 'Desert Tigers' squadron is reactivated at Halwara AFS, reequipped with the Su-30MKI.

The first Su-30MKI squadron for the Western Air Command. Jodhpur AFS which also has Su-30MKIs based there, is part of the South Western Air Command.

IAF inducts frontline fighter Su-30MKI at Halwara air base


Agencies

Scaling up its presence along the Pakistan border, the Indian Air Force today inducted its frontline fighter aircraft Su-30MKI at the Halwara air base in Punjab.

This is the first squadron of the Su-30MKI to be inducted into the Western Air Command - known as the sword arm of the IAF.

"The aircraft was inducted into the air base under the WAC in a formal ceremony by Air Marshal Arup Raha," Western Air Command spokesperson Group Captain Sandeep Mehta said here.

The squadron known as the 'Desert Tigers', was flying the MiG 23 till 2005 and was number-plated after the aircraft were phased out from the IAF.

The SU-30 MKI is a frontline all-weather air-dominance fighter with multi-role capability, which can undertake varied air combat and ground attack missions.

Highlighting the strategic importance of the Halwara air base, the WAC said, "It is one of the oldest frontline bases of the IAF and due to its strategic location was actively involved in both 1965 and 1971 Indo-Pak wars."

Inaugurating the air base, Air Marshal Raha congratulated the air warriors of Halwara air base for successful induction of SU-30 MKI.

"The squadron has enhanced the operational capability of Western Air Command in a substantial manner," he said.

The IAF has now deployed the Su-30MKIs at several of its bases in the east and the western regions.

The bases include Tezpur and Chabua in Assam along the borders with China, Bareilly in Uttar Pradesh and Jodhpur in Rajasthan along with its major home base Pune in Maharashtra.

link

[BlackArcher]

Wasn't this largely due to the inability or unwillingness of politicians for many years to approve the purchase of Hawks or aircraft of similar performance, to provide a good transition from lower performance trainers to the MiG-21?

yes indeed.

the Hawks were shockingly enough, evaluated way back in 1986 and Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar was the test pilot at ASTE who performed the evaluation. Well after his retirement, the Hawk deal was signed, although the variant he flew and the variant the IAF eventually inducted were very different.

That was the longest running and the most badly managed arms deals in the IAF's history I suppose, with politicians completely ignoring the IAF's desperate requests to induct an AJT.

Sep 3, 2003

BANGALORE: As the news of the Centre picking Hawk as an Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT) for the Indian Air Force (IAF) was splashed on television networks on Wednesday, a retired IAF pilot in Bangalore, who was back from his golf course, was elated. He had more than one reason to be happy.

Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar, who retired as director of Aeronautical Development Agency last week, was the first pilot to evaluate the Hawks of British Aerospace (BAe) and the French-made Alpha jets in 1986. "I am very happy that the IAF will get the AJTs after waiting for so many years. It's definitely a breaking news for our pilots," Rajkumar told The Times of India on Wednesday.

Rajkumar, who was the then chief test pilot at ASTE, was part of the IAF evaluation team, which was handpicked to fly the Hawk in UK. "We flew both the AJTs and Hawk finally emerged as the front-runner. Since the time we evaluated the Hawks, the aircraft has undergone many changes. Subsequent evaluation teams might also have found Hawks as the perfect AJT," Rajkumar said.

if you're interested in reading on the MiG Operational Flying Training Unit (MOFTU), there is a good article MOFTU- Bharat Rakshak article

[BlackArcher]

IAF to get 22 AH-64D Block III Apaches.


Aviationweek link

September 24, 2012

NEW DELHI — India’s air force has agreed to purchase 22 Apache AH-64D multirole combat helicopters from Boeing in a deal worth an estimated $1.4 billion.

“The financial bid for attack helos was opened some time last week, and since Russia had withdrawn its Mi-28N Night Hunter, Boeing emerged as the sole bidder,” a senior defense ministry official says.

The Apache deal includes both direct commercial sale (DCS) and foreign military sales (FMS) components. The agreement also includes offset elements and firm, fixed-cost pricing.

The FMS contract includes munitions, training, aircraft certification and components including engines, electro-optical sensors and the fire control radar, which is optional. The DCS contract primarily consists of the aircraft (less engines/sensors), logistic support, spares and services.

A person closely associated with the deal says talks with the U.S. government concerning the FMS, and with Boeing on the DCS, already have started. “We expect the contract to be signed before the end of this financial year [March 31, 2013],” the person says.

Boeing offered its latest Block-III version of the Apache to India in 2009. Russia, which had fielded the Mi-28, announced late last year that it was out of the running after failing to meet several of the air force’s technical requirements.

Boeing says the timing of deliveries will depend on the air force’s specific requirements. According to the request for proposals, deliveries should start within 36 months of the contract signing.

...

Meanwhile the Indian government also will soon open bids for heavy-lift helicopters and aerial refueling tankers, Indian air force chief, N.A.K. Browne says.

Boeing is offering the Chinook CH-47F and Russia its Mi-26 for the heavy-lift contract. Airbus is offering its A330-based multirole tanker transport against the Russian Ilyushin IL-76 in the race to win the refueler contract.

This will probably test out Indo-Russian relations. In both the competitions that will see bids being opened, the Western equipment is superior and in the case of the tanker bid, its already known that the IAF preferred the A330-MRTT over the Il-78 Midas. Losing 3 high-profile bids in India against US and European makers could dent relations between India and Russia..plus there is the Indian Army Cheetah replacement contract to come up soon as well. That may be a more even contest.

[BlackArcher]

IAF AW-101 VIP chopper

[swerve]

IAF to get 22 AH-64D Block III Apaches.

Aviationweek link

This will probably test out Indo-Russian relations. In both the competitions that will see bids being opened, the Western equipment is superior and in the case of the tanker bid, its already known that the IAF preferred the A330-MRTT over the Il-78 Midas. Losing 3 high-profile bids in India against US and European makers could dent relations between India and Russia..plus there is the Indian Army Cheetah replacement contract to come up soon as well. That may be a more even contest.

If the Russians are friendly only as long as India buys Russian weapons, regardless of their quality & price, then Russia is not a good friend. The answer for Russia is to improve what they offer, not get upset.

[TR1]

IAF to get 22 AH-64D Block III Apaches.


Aviationweek link



This will probably test out Indo-Russian relations. In both the competitions that will see bids being opened, the Western equipment is superior and in the case of the tanker bid, its already known that the IAF preferred the A330-MRTT over the Il-78 Midas. Losing 3 high-profile bids in India against US and European makers could dent relations between India and Russia..plus there is the Indian Army Cheetah replacement contract to come up soon as well. That may be a more even contest.

The two helicopter contracts are fairly small and insignificant for Russian Helicopters, so I don't think it will test anything.
Mi-28N isn't even fully realized yet, so it would be hard to get upset over it not being selected.

[JangBoGo]

If the Russians are friendly only as long as India buys Russian weapons, regardless of their quality & price, then Russia is not a good friend. The answer for Russia is to improve what they offer, not get upset.

Its only Indians who are thinking that Russia is getting upset after reading articles. Not the Russians. After-sales service is an area that Russia needs to seriously look into. On the other hand it is the Yanks who are getting upset very often even after getting so many multi-billion contracts and as if that was not enough, Govt is parroting their line on many international affairs, which in the future could even be detrimental to Indian security.

So basically, deals with Russia comes with complete political freedom, where as deals with America comes with American $tick in Indian mouth - No more independent talk/decisions. We are seeing one example of that with cutting import of Iranian crude etc, even though ordinary Indians are struggling hard to keep their life on track due to inflation and price hike. But since there are a lot of Indians ready to service American front & rear, Indian Govt is making use of their specialized service to keep the Yanks happy...

[BlackArcher]

The two helicopter contracts are fairly small and insignificant for Russian Helicopters, so I don't think it will test anything.
Mi-28N isn't even fully realized yet, so it would be hard to get upset over it not being selected.

Fairly small and insignificant is it? Just how many Mi-26Ts are on order for the RuAF and other international customers? How about the Ka-226- how many on order for the RuAF and other international customers? And if the RuAF alone can sustain Russian Helicopters then it’s well and good for them, no need to worry.

The Mi-28N was not a mature product at the time of the trials and didn’t meet some technical specifications and hence lost to the Apache. That is the sanguine truth which also applied to the MiG-35 in the MRCA but it still left some people bitter and others speculating that it was rigged to avoid all of the IAF’s eggs being in the Russian basket.

But there is a trend out there of replacing Soviet and Russian arms with US and Western arms; losing a string of other orders such as the Heavy lift chopper and the Tanker Transport will mean that the trend will continue. Already the IAF has opted for a nearly all-American future transport fleet in the C-130J and C-17 opting not to bother with the Il-476. the MTA project is still on the ground and refusing to budge. The Il-38 and Tu-142 fleet will be replaced in the future by the P-8I..the writing seems to be on the wall for anyone to read. A former nearly captive customer opting for non-Russian arms in so many competitions and in so many areas of aviation will definitely put some strain on defence ties.

There are some areas where Russian arms still are the best solution- cheap, reliable and capable, such as the Mi-17IV. Even traditionally Western supplied Air Forces like the PAF operate these. And some areas where the IAF had no real alternative, such as the PAK-FA.

Which brings me to another question- what Russian alternative exists for ASW, AShW naval helis?

[MSphere]

Fairly small and insignificant is it? Just how many Mi-26Ts are on order for the RuAF and other international customers? How about the Ka-226- how many on order for the RuAF and other international customers? And if the RuAF alone can sustain Russian Helicopters then it’s well and good for them, no need to worry.

Mi-28N is not that much of a problem - its production comes with relatively modest earnings, thus the pressure to sell some on the export market is fairly limited. The Mi-26, of course, is another story.

[TR1]

Fairly small and insignificant is it? Just how many Mi-26Ts are on order for the RuAF and other international customers? How about the Ka-226- how many on order for the RuAF and other international customers? And if the RuAF alone can sustain Russian Helicopters then it’s well and good for them, no need to worry.

Yeah, check the Russian Helicopters portfolio.
This order does nothing to hurt them, since they are heavily backlogged anyways, both in export and for the first time, domestic orders.

[JSR]

If the Russians are friendly only as long as India buys Russian weapons, regardless of their quality & price, then Russia is not a good friend. The answer for Russia is to improve what they offer, not get upset.

hehe. what has India done for Russia to earn its friendship and is even capable of doing anything in future.
There 1000 domestic orders for Oboronprom before 2020. I am not counting any export orders for Oboronprom. More than 300 transport planes before 2020. There is not a space for insignificant customized orders now.
Personally i think Putin should pull the plug on PAK-FA, Brahmos and Gorshkov. let India buy all Western. and see how it become another Turkey.
Russia has much better use of systems in its own armed forces

[Witcha]

Given Turkey's rapid defence modernization becoming more like them wouldn't be bad at all.

I also wouldn't mind if we dumped both the PAK-FA and MRTA(Wonder what the Russians would do to replace their An-12s then) as well as the price-inflated Mi-17 deal and went all Western/Asian.

A KFX-style partnership for a 5th gen fighter, join the Embraer C-390 programme for a medium transport(as it is it's likely to get off the ground years before an MRTA prototype is built), the Fennec for a light helo and a HAL-Eurocopter partnership and licence-built Sikorsky S-92s(they already have an agreement with Tata to source home-built cabins) for medium helos.

[swerve]

Its only Indians who are thinking that Russia is getting upset after reading articles. Not the Russians. After-sales service is an area that Russia needs to seriously look into. On the other hand it is the Yanks who are getting upset very often even after getting so many multi-billion contracts and as if that was not enough, Govt is parroting their line on many international affairs, which in the future could even be detrimental to Indian security.

So basically, deals with Russia comes with complete political freedom, where as deals with America comes with American $tick in Indian mouth - No more independent talk/decisions. We are seeing one example of that with cutting import of Iranian crude etc, even though ordinary Indians are struggling hard to keep their life on track due to inflation and price hike. But since there are a lot of Indians ready to service American front & rear, Indian Govt is making use of their specialized service to keep the Yanks happy...

Agreed, agreed. When I read some of the stuff written about US & Russian arms deals, & said by Indian politicians, I'm baffled. I don't understand this Indian attitude that links buying weapons to maintaining good relations with the countries selling them. In reality, the suppliers are keen to keep good relations, & & keen to sell, & they aren't going to get in a huff because they fail to sell, just try harder, & be nice.

One really stupid thing is that if it wants, India can buy US weapons with far fewer strings than it thinks. All that's needed is for India to say "No" to the strings. The USA will back down. It knows India has alternative suppliers. Of course, there are some strings the USA will insist on (as it insists on them for all customers), but nowhere near as many as Indian politicians seem to think.

[TR1]

(Wonder what the Russians would do to replace their An-12s then)

Develop Il-214 on their own?

[Witcha]

Develop Il-214 on their own?

And contribute double the funding and probably take longer(as it is the project looks like it's going nowhere). If India were so petty and insignificant to the Russian defence industry they wouldn't have outright cancelled the more capable Tu-330 as soon as the IAF showed interest in the Il-214.

[killerbean]

I think it would be best if India pulled out of the Il-214 project and instead went for C-130. India gains no technical base / experience with the Il-214 since it has no input in it other than a few avionics. So instead we could go for the best in industry plane in that category, C-130, and have it license built by Tata.

Tata would gain aircraft building experience instead of wasting more money on that failed PSU known as HAL.

[swerve]

I think that participation in KC-390 could be better for India than licence-building C-130. India would be the biggest customer, thus gaining immense clout in how the aircraft develops. Indian firms would get more work from KC-390, & a share in all sales.

C-130J is currently the only military freighter in production in its size class, so I suppose you could call it 'best in industry' on that basis. :diablo: But KC-390 promises better performance in most respects.

[Twinblade]

India's eighth Sukhoi SU-30 combat jet squadron by December

New Delhi, Sep 26, 2012, (IANS):
India will raise its eighth squadron of Sukhoi SU-30 MKI frontline combat planes in December this year and it will be based at Sirsa in Haryana, just 150 km from the border with Pakistan and which had acted as a forward airbase during the 1971 war.

[JSR]

Given Turkey's rapid defence modernization becoming more like them wouldn't be bad at all.

Turkey weopons are so modernized that cannot be used.

I also wouldn't mind if we dumped both the PAK-FA and MRTA(Wonder what the Russians would do to replace their An-12s then) as well as the price-inflated Mi-17 deal and went all Western/Asian.

I dont think India money is into PAK-FA/MRTA. Mi-17 very reasonably priced and even Chinese are using them.

A KFX-style partnership for a 5th gen fighter, join the Embraer C-390 programme for a medium transport(as it is it's likely to get off the ground years before an MRTA prototype is built), the Fennec for a light helo and a HAL-Eurocopter partnership and licence-built Sikorsky S-92s(they already have an agreement with Tata to source home-built cabins) for medium helos.

KC-390 is assembling of parts from supply chain that is completely unwilling to share anything with underpowered engines on overweight platform with x- section not shared with larger plane like aka IL-476. This thing will uneconomical from the gate as there is no large airforce and sharing of platforms/engines.
KFX is a bad joke . at best Korea can achieve in next 20 years is 1996 standard Mitsubishi F-2. Korea has far less technical ability with near complete dependency on foreign technical people and copying.
Japan had savings that keep Japan afloat for decades. Korea dont have savings. it will go straight to external lenders and external lenders will put stringent conditions on defence budget.

http://www.voanews.com/content/south...s/1514393.html

[Witcha]

Turkey weopons are so modernized that cannot be used.

I dont think India money is into PAK-FA/MRTA. Mi-17 very reasonably priced and even Chinese are using them.

The countries that buy or seek to buy their 'too modern' weapons would disagree. Let them enter a war and you'll see them used to your wild disbelief.

And maybe you ought to read the articles on the India-Russia PAK-FA and MRTA agreements then. We're funding 50 percent of the MRTA's budget but getting a rather tiny percent of the workshare, hence the delays with contract negotiations. Likewise with the PAK FA in the long run. You think our Defence Minister is announcing huge outlays on these projects for an April fool's joke?

KC-390 is assembling of parts from supply chain that is completely unwilling to share anything with underpowered engines on overweight platform with x- section not shared with larger plane like aka IL-476. This thing will uneconomical from the gate as there is no large airforce and sharing of platforms/engines.
KFX is a bad joke . at best Korea can achieve in next 20 years is 1996 standard Mitsubishi F-2. Korea has far less technical ability with near complete dependency on foreign technical people and copying.
Japan had savings that keep Japan afloat for decades. Korea dont have savings. it will go straight to external lenders and external lenders will put stringent conditions on defence budget.

http://www.voanews.com/content/south...s/1514393.html

Not surprisingly you've got nothing good to say about any aircraft programmes that may be alternatives to Russia. Just calm down and wait. I fully expect the KC-390 will be far more successful as the Il-214 on the export market, nor will spare parts and logistics be anywhere near an issue than it is on nearly all Russian planes(including, probably, the Il-214 sometime in the future).

Likewise, whether or not it gets as many customers as the PAK FA, the KFX will fly. Regardless of your rather deep contempt, South Korea had enough capability to develop the greatest trainer/light fighter in the market today. Any technical gaps there are can and will be filled in by willing American and European partners.

[JSR]

The countries that buy or seek to buy their 'too modern' weapons would disagree. Let them enter a war and you'll see them used to your wild disbelief.

thats they problem they cannot start war that impact larger US interests. soon Russia and China will become so powerfull that any one start war against there allies will practically impossible.
infact expensive weopons make sure there is less money for other things.

And maybe you ought to read the articles on the India-Russia PAK-FA and MRTA agreements then. We're funding 50 percent of the MRTA's budget but getting a rather tiny percent of the workshare, hence the delays with contract negotiations. Likewise with the PAK FA in the long run. You think our Defence Minister is announcing huge outlays on these projects for an April fool's joke?

bottom line is IL-476 has flown and tier-1 supplier base of MTS will be built around IL-476. so that 50% funding is more like licensing that will come later.

Not surprisingly you've got nothing good to say about any aircraft programmes that may be alternatives to Russia. Just calm down and wait. I fully expect the KC-390 will be far more successful as the Il-214 on the export market, nor will spare parts and logistics be anywhere near an issue than it is on nearly all Russian planes(including, probably, the Il-214 sometime in the future).

Have u look at Embarer profits. they are tiny relative to sales. It is not if they are doing some intensive R&D to move into next level.
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...8IUG4N20120730
They dont control supply chain. They dont have any intellectual capacity despite have 30 year commerical success. which cannot be repeated.

Likewise, whether or not it gets as many customers as the PAK FA, the KFX will fly. Regardless of your rather deep contempt, South Korea had enough capability to develop the greatest trainer/light fighter in the market today. Any technical gaps there are can and will be filled in by willing American and European partners.

South Korea cannot develop shiit without foreign expertize. All they have done is copying and improving the same thing for ever and even for that it need foreign technical people. Italy also created successfull trainer. American/Euro will only transfer second rate tech that is pretty much discarded. 50% financing contribution does not mean 50% technology.
for 67 MTOW KC-390 can only lift 16tons.
for 68 tons MTOW MTS lift 20 tons. i will even consider that 67 ton as bogus number just to look good on paper. maxmum altitude MTS 43000 feet. KC-390 36000 feet. Ferry range. MTS 3900nauts. KC-390 3200 nauts.
Since MTS will fly higher with better thrust to weight ratio so it can fly from higher elevation. MTS is 60000 flight hrs. it will have very long life for tactical transport with much higher curising speed. It is almost a 4 engine plane.
http://www.uacrussia.ru/ru/models/transport/mts/data/

http://www.embraerdefensesystems.com...erformance.asp

[Italy]

Indian FGFA model unveiled..

basically Saffron version of pakfa

[killerbean]

Indian FGFA model unveiled..

basically Saffron version of pakfa

and perhaps Katrina Kaif would do the vocals for the cockpit voice system...

[Twinblade]

Seems like Israel has removed the restrictions on export of airborne AESA radars to India

AESA radars are considered the most advanced radars for jet fighters, and they improve the aircraft’s ability to detect aerial targets. In the past, the Ministry of Defense has prevented Elta from offering the new radar for export, but this was changed since several manufacturers, including US manufacturers, are offering them around the world.

An Israeli Radar in India’s Jet Fighter?

I suppose the array which is undergoing testing in LRDE labs might get productionised with help from Elta.