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Thread: CSeries launch customer

  1. #31
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    Still 160-seater

    Despite delays, and rejection by Air Asia:
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...cluded-379612/
    Who shall be flying 160 seat CS300?

  2. #32
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    At the moment Vueling, easyJet and flydubai are interested... and someone else too, but I can't remember right now...
    Last edited by Deano; 24th January 2013 at 10:26. Reason: COC RULE 14
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  3. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt-100 View Post
    As Airbus have found out, the 160 seat airline market is dead! Just look at the A319 sales figures.
    Now granted, the A319 order slow-down might be down to operators realising that the operating costs of the A319 are very similar to that of the A320, so you might as well get the larger A320 - but if there was really such a demand for 160 seat aircraft I'm sure the airlines would have raised the issue with the manufacturers by now.
    Sure, A319 is a dog, but 737-700 did perfectly fine. Overall, I think there is a tendency to move towards the higher capacity end of the scale, but 737-700 shows this niche is/was valued: more than 1400 sales. Of course, the MAX 7 hasn't really seen any sales yet, but I wouldn't say that really means much, the design could still be tweaked, and the worthiness of a shrink of a platform that goes up to near 200 pa doesn't say much about Bombardier's CS300 stretch. The MAX 8 is doing fine, and of course many users will be using it in a 2 class config of 160x pa.

  4. #34
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    Some news:
    yesterday an undisclosed airline in the Americas signed a LoI for 12 CS100 +18 options.
    http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...01260d8027f220
    Today airBaltic converted its LoI to a firm order (10 CS300 +10 options)
    http://www.bombardier.com/en/corpora...01260d80281fc5
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  5. #35
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    Some CSeries news/pics:
    Flight Test Vehicle 1 (FTV1) is structurally completed and will be fitted with engines on monday.




    FTV 2 and 3 are also under construction and can be seen in this picture.


    original source for the photos: Bombardier Aerospace on twitter
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  6. #36
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    GTF tested!

    Pratt and Whitney have completed GTF tests and have applied for certification:

    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...engine-381693/

    When shall two GTF engines be ready for installation on the same CSeries prototype?

  7. #37
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    I read on the Airliners.net website last week that they engines are to be attached on Monday this week. I look forward to see a picture of the C Series looking complete.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paolins92 View Post
    In all-business the CS100 will hold 44 pax against the 32 of the A318, considering that it is longer...
    Really?

    I´ve seen the number 44 to 48 seats quoted elsewhere - but I do not understand what it means.

    Take the standard Bombardier configurations:
    125 seat high density. That is 25 rows at 30´´ pitch - total 750´´ seats. Plus one exit row.
    110 seat standard single class. 22 rows at 32´´ pitch - total 704´´ seats. The extra space goes to what looks like an extra galley in front, and closets.
    100 seat dual class. 4 rows of 4 abreast business class at 36´´ pitch, totalling 144´´, and 17 rows of 5 abreast cattle class at 32´´ pitch, totalling 544´´ - combined 688´´, the extra space goes to an extra pair of toilets in the back, but in front omitting closet, leaving galley in place.

    Sure - you could fill a CS100 with 4 abreast seats at 36´´ pitch, and get 19 or even 20 rows. It would be all-business, and 76 or 80 seats. But these would not be sleeper seats matching the comfort level of BA0001! Not that there is anything wrong with 20 rows of 4 abreast seats... Midwest could buy a CSeries to replace their 717:
    http://www.airliners.net/photo/Midwe...-2BL/0905471/L

    If you do want to match the BA0001 level, however...

    Yes, CS100 is longer than A318, slightly. Maximum no frills seating of 125 at 5 abreast on CS100 means 25 rows. Maximum no frills seating of 136 at 6 abreast on A318 means about 23 rows.
    Since BA0001 fits 8 rows of sleepers on A318, CS100 might fit about 9 rows... That would mean about 76´´...78´´ pitch, maybe 83´´... reasonable for sleepers.

    Note that the sleepers, at the same 4 abreast, would still be narrower that on A318, because the CSeries cabin is 41 cm narrower. To match and exceed A318, 3 abreast is needed.

    Settling for 4 abreast, 36 sleepers... what would the payload be like? Including the weight of the sleeper seats?

    Oh, and of course you can put 44 or 48 seats on all-business CSeries, or 76, or 40 or 60 or any number in between. It is just a different comfort level than BA0001. By my estimate, 48 seats means about 59´´ pitch, and 44 seats about 64´´.
    Last edited by chornedsnorkack; 14th February 2013 at 06:29.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThreeSpool View Post
    I read on the Airliners.net website last week that they engines are to be attached on Monday this week. I look forward to see a picture of the C Series looking complete.
    Bombardier got the pair by 6th instant but was then left awaiting certification:
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...sembly-382010/
    GTF was finally certified yesterday:
    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...rticle8900900/

    Ilyushin did, however, cancel all their CS100 frames.

    When shall first CS300 prototype fly?

  10. #40
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    Russia's Ilyushin Finance Co. Signs Purchase Agreement for up to 42 Bombardier CSeries Aircraft
    The Ilyushin order, signed yesterday, converted the LOI firmed in 2011.
    The original LOI comprised 3 CS100 and 7 CS300 + 10 options + 10 purchase rights.
    The firmed order is for 32 CS300 + 10 options, so Ilyushin increased the overall amount while upgauging the 3 CS100 frames to CS300.

    The first CS300 test aircraft (FTV 6) is scheduled to liftoff during December 2013.

    The FTV1 got engines:
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  11. #41
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    Rollout announced!

    On Thursday, 7th of March, 2013.

    Incidentally, what is your estimate for the seating of an "all-business" CS100? Still 44, or do you agree with 36? And what would the payload be at that seating?

  12. #42
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    I agree with you on the all-business seating analysis, but even at the same seating config the CS100 beats the A318 in economy. Well, some extra revenue would be a plus
    Last edited by Deano; 4th March 2013 at 14:37. Reason: COC RULE 14
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  13. #43
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    What do you think would be MTOW of CS100 at LCY?

    With PW1524 engines, the take-off distance was quoted as 1509 m for CS100ER at MTOW 58 151 kg, and 1890 m for CS300ER at its MTOW 63 322 kg. CS300XT, before its abolition, was offered at MTOW of 59 557 kg and takeoff distance 1661 m.

    All these distance apply at SL and ISA.

    LCY is 1318 m. And while LCY is at sea level, it is not always at ISA. The temperatures in London do exceed +15 at summer days.

    PW1524G is flat rated to ISA+15, and London rarely exceeds +30. But wings are not flat rated.

    What would be the MTOW hit for CS100 at LCY and worst conditions (+30)?

    Considering the all-business 32 seat payload, which also saves a lot from the standard payload... would CS100 take off with full tanks (or indeed extra fuel tanks) or suffer a fuel and range penalty?
    Last edited by Deano; 4th March 2013 at 14:37. Reason: COC RULE 14

  14. #44
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    I guess that the speculated all-business CS100 would fly un-restricred, in terms of payload, in all probable ISA conditions.
    For other versions I'll wait for the performance data coming from the flight tests, but I guess that it would not need an excessive restriction.
    Furthermore Bombardier declared that the CS100 will be LCY-certified "out of the box".
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paolins92 View Post
    I guess that the speculated all-business CS100 would fly un-restricred, in terms of payload, in all probable ISA conditions.
    Does not make sense.

    Compare Global 8000:
    http://www2.bombardier.com/en/3_0/3_..._factsheet.pdf

    Its nominal range, of 7900 nm, is defined at payload of just 8 passengers. This obviously means that G8000 is, at that range, restricted in terms of payload because its maximum payload is 19 passengers.

    With CS100, you can always pick a destination which is so far that it can only be reached at a payload restricted even from the already small all-business one. And since at LCY the MTOW is always restricted and dependent on weather, even for CS100, there will be conceivable destinations which CS100 can reach at full all-business payload in favourable weather, but only at payload restricted from that low level in case of bad weather.

    So what I´d like to figure out is - what is the still air range which CS100 with PW1524G can reach out of LCY at the worst likely weather there (+30, no wind) with the full 36 seat all business payload?

  16. #46
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    I have no idea on what will the degradation in performance for the CSeries be, and as such, I have no idea of what could those ranges/regulated weights be.
    Although, since Swiss will operate the CS100 from LCY (replacing Avros), and they plan a relatively short hop (ZRH), for small ranges I guess no restriction will apply, unless prohibitive ISA conditions.

    On a side note Lufthansa is considering, according to CH-Aviation, to convert its options to replace Austrian Airlines (Tyrolean) Fokkers.
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  17. #47
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    Good see progress on the mini-787.

  18. #48
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    Rollout of the first CSeries aircraft, plus program update scheduled for Thursday at 3pm GMT.
    The event, which will take place at the Montreal-Mirabel Final Assembly facility and test facility, will also be followed from Belfast, where Bombardier builds several major structures for the CSeries (like wings).

    There will also be a live webcast on the event webpage: Bombardier CSeries Program Update
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  19. #49
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    CS300 Extra Crowded launched!

    Bombardier now officially has a launch customer for CS300 Extra Crowded:
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...baltic-383179/
    Air Baltic, 148 seats out of the 160 seat maximum.

  20. #50
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    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
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  21. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by airchive.com/blog/2013/03/08/the-bombardier-cseries-rolls-out-but-is-it-a-game-changer
    The windows are not only the largest on any narrow body, but are close in size to the Boeing 787 Dreamliner and upcoming Airbus A350XWB.
    False. The window size 11´´x16´´ is big, but DC-8 has 14´´x18´´. And at 351 cm cabin width, DC-8 is a narrowbody.

    But CSeries specifications have been changed - notably, the plane is stretched, CS100 inside and CS300 inside and out.

    The current specifications:

    CS100:
    List price 62 million US$
    Cabin length stretched from 22,7 m to 23,7 m. Outer length unchanged at 34,9 m
    Cabin aisle height lowered from 213 cm to 211 cm. Centerline width unchanged at 328 cm, and so is floorline width at 310 cm.
    Floor area increased from 70 to 72 square m
    Slight MTOW increase, from 58 151 kg to 58 513 kg.
    A "Base" version added, with the lower MTOW of 52 617 kg
    Range at 110 passengers at 102 kg each unchanged at 5463 km.
    The "Base" version, with the same payload, has range of 2778 km
    The takeoff distance, despite increased MTOW, is decreased from 1509 m to 1463 m (SL, ISA).
    The "Base" version manages takeoff in 1219 m, at SL, ISA.

  22. #52
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    Bombardier, among the new data released, specifies in the general brochure (link here) that the specs of the "base" version are related to "urban operations" (specifically shows LCY), so the "max" would be the actual maximum weights/distances that the aircraft uses on an un-restricted airport.

    Talking about the XCS (eXtra Capacity Seating) Lufthansa and Swiss also expressed intrest, as reported by Flightglobal.

    Meanwhile, on the topic of this thread's title, the name of the 1st operator is still undisclosed.
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  23. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paolins92 View Post
    that the specs of the "base" version are related to "urban operations" (specifically shows LCY), so the "max" would be the actual maximum weights/distances that the aircraft uses on an un-restricted airport.
    How does the performance of "base" version compare against the performance of "max" version with light fuel load and takeoff weight equal to that of "base" version aximum takeoff weight?

  24. #54
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    From what I see the difference base/max is simply the reduced MTOW (that leads to reduced takeoff/landing distances and reduced range).
    So basically the same aircraft, no structural differences.
    Last edited by Deano; 13th April 2013 at 17:15. Reason: COC RULE 14
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  25. #55
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    LCY is said to have TORA of 1199 m, but ASDA/TODA of 1319 m.

    And CS100Base needs just 1219 m runway at MTOW.

    Does it mean that LCY could operate CS100Max at restricted take-off weight? The 100 m which a lightly loaded CS100Max can use but CS100Base cannot would mean some additional take-off weight and range....

  26. #56
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    That's exactly what I think.

    Talking about today's LH order for 35 A320neo + 35 A321neo + 30 A320ceo, I guess that either the mainline is shifting away from the A319-sized aircraft, or is waiting for the CSeries' 1st flight to place orders for the CS300 in which showed interest.
    Last edited by Deano; 13th April 2013 at 17:16. Reason: COC RULE 14

  27. #57
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    Another jet which can operate out of 1200 m runway is Bring Another Engine 146.

    But the contrast is range. From a 1200 m runway at SL, ISA, a BAE 146-300 cannot operate at all (with nominal payload), BAE 146-200 can cover 600 nm, and BAE 146-100 can fly 900 nm.

    Whereas CS100Base can fly about 1400 nm at these conditions.

  28. #58
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    With that range, an airline could easily do Moscow, that's a destination that would feature a lot of business passengers (see British going there with the 747 from LHR)
    Also Istanbul fits within that range.
    I wonder if that mysterious "Odyssey" reported by Reuters (officially by Bombardier just "an european airline 1st time buyer of BBD aircraft") is just a "project name" for BA, expanding from LCY.
    The CS100 with its range would boost both business and leisure destinations.
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

  29. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Snow Monkey View Post
    Sure, A319 is a dog, but 737-700 did perfectly fine. Overall, I think there is a tendency to move towards the higher capacity end of the scale, but 737-700 shows this niche is/was valued: more than 1400 sales.
    There have been more than 1,522 orders* for the A319(s), and 1,457 orders** for the 737-700(s) to date. Neither a bad aircraft (in terms of sales), and neither an inconsiderable market.

    The lack of interest in the newer A319NEO/737-7MAX might be to do with the higher OEW and the one flight attendant per 50 passengers rule making the larger A320NEO/737-8MAX more desirable.

    *Source: Airbus Orders & Deliveries (Airbus_Feb_2013_Orders_Deliveries.xls)

    **Source: Boeing Orders and Deliveries

  30. #60
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    The main thing that is killing 319neo and MAX7 sales is their further increase in structural weight... considering that they are already heavier that the competition, they will be even heavier. IMHO that's the point.
    Side note: within the 1522 A319 sales there are also the 26 A319neo ordered by Qatar and Republic.
    Each evening, stars come out their daylight hiding places... But one of those, is my wingtip, passing over...

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