Olympic missile attack

[Dave Wilson]

They were also on the picket lines. It was the miner's strike (and I had no affiliation one way or the other to it) that brought home to me how thinly veiled this democracy we're supposed to live in is.

There was one famous incident, I think it was at a coking plant somewhere where the pickets were shown attacking the police and then we were shown the police charging them with horses. In fact it was the other way around.

I never quite understood why we actually had to destroy the mining industry. In any other country during a drop in demand for coal they simply put the mines on care and maintenance. It would cost billions to get the mines open again, in fact we would have to start from scratch. Utter madness.

[paul178]

Just picking up on this thread. The MP5 issued to plod are not the fully automatic version, but will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger each time.
A good thing in my opinion when being used in our crowded country.
BTW a good amourer could reconvert it in 5 mins.

My day it was the SLR with a nice wooden stock(or Paddy Wacker as it was known).

[John Green]

Many of us thought that scary bangs included, it couldn't get any better ! I've just read that the missiles to be installed can't be used in poor visibility. As Littlejohn says: "You couldn't make it up"

So, the message to all revolutionaries, hi-jackers and the plain disaffected, is to await an optimistic Met Office forecast for London weather thus knowing that the opposite will occur and then light the firework.

One aspect troubles me. I know that we pay 'lip service' to the notion of a free Press but, publishing missile deficiencies in a National newspaper isn't a good idea.

Heath Robinson lives.


John Green

[Moggy C]

Just picking up on this thread. The MP5 issued to plod are not the fully automatic version, but will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger each time.

Indeed. And a great bit of kit they are for the distances at which police engage the bad guys in most incidents.

I have a lot of range time on MP5 and despite being a useless shot can hit people-sized targets most of the time. A good tool.

On the other hand, do not get me started on the ammunition that are police are saddled with. Jacketed soft point? Don't make me laugh - give 'em the proper kit.

Moggy

[paul178]

Jacketed soft point? I did not know that. Best thing really you might hurt someone with anything else!

[Moggy C]

Naw, JSP are useless. Hardly any expansion at all.

Some I had sold were used in an incident involving an armed robbery and a tip-off. One of the perps took two or three rounds and was still running, one of the rounds went through him, out the other side and on to collect a bystander's ankle.

But proper expanding ammo isn't thought to be 'fair' or somesuch. IMHO, to protect the citizenry from stray rounds they should be compulsory

Moggy

[TEEJ]

John Green wrote

Thanks for the corrections.

No problem.

John Green wrote

Knowing full well that the pressing of the button would unleash irrevocable destruction of the aircraft and three or four hundred lives not only on the aircraft but almost certainly on the ground of the city over which they would be flying? I, certainly, would never wish to be placed in that situation.

The situation is a reality and it is practised with all elements of the command and control system. A tough decision for all involved but the aim is to deny the terrorists a high profile target and unfortunately tough choices have to be made.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10750260

It is a case of damned if you do or damned if you don't. The chances of it happening are slim, but I would rather have this layered system in place and utilise all available systems. Put yourself in the shoes of the military team that have planned this layered system? Their aim is to afford protection to a high value target and to sight missiles accordingly. No harm in thinking outside that box and doing the planning and deployment as effectively as possible.

John Green wrote

I've just read that the missiles to be installed can't be used in poor visibility. As Littlejohn says: "You couldn't make it up"

So, the message to all revolutionaries, hi-jackers and the plain disaffected, is to await an optimistic Met Office forecast for London weather thus knowing that the opposite will occur and then light the firework.

There was a reason why the hi-jackers on 9/11 chose a perfect day for their attack. If the hi-jackers can't visually see the target then how can they effectively find it and hope to fly into it?

The system in the MoD leaflet for the tower at the flats has the Starstreak system highlighted for potential deployment. Starstreak is a line of sight beam riding weapon as stipulated on the British Army website.

http://www.army.mod.uk/equipment/art...ence/1509.aspx

See 'Description' and 'Disadvantages'. I expect that the press have jumped on the wikipedia Starstreak entry and gone for the attention grabbing 'poor visibility' snippet?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starstreak_(missile)

Battlefield obscurants such as smoke can degrade the ability of the missile operator to see the target, and could potentially interfere with the guidance laser.

All such man-portable air defence systems have their limitations. Just the same as if, for example, an infra-red homing system was deployed on the tower.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9K38_Igla

The military planners are going for a layered system and have included the Starstreak as a last line of defence. Again put yourself in the shoes of those professionals tasked to implement the plan? Yes obviously the main plan is to intercept with Typhoons and helicopters, but what is the harm in deploying a point defence system as a back-up?

You claim 'Heath Robinson' but would you come to the same decision if you actually sat down and discussed it at planning level with those professionals tasked with the job? Are you qualified to question those military professionals on the planning team?

[TEEJ]

I see that the 'missile expert' journalist Brian Whelan is still whinging!

London 2012: Legal bid over Olympics flats missile plan

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-17908640

[spitfireman]

Many of us thought that scary bangs included, it couldn't get any better ! I've just read that the missiles to be installed can't be used in poor visibility.

John Green

Ah, that will be Rapier then. When I worked along side them down the Falklands 82, they were optically tracked to the target.

I don't understand you're problem with this type of SAM, bearing in mind the target aircraft also has to visually aquire its target, therefore, whats a visibility issue for one, is a visibility issue for the other.

Rapier was upgraded to 'Blindfire' after the Falklands so I don't know how much better it became.

I wrote in my diary at the time the system was "..a little fussy.." but I believe they were firing off older rounds taken out of storage. Care had to be taken when stood behind the missile (even 100ft away) when fired as it would lob a 2lb plastic cap very high speed at you.

Anybody on here work with 'Blindfire' know the difference?

Baz

[John Green]

Re 67 & 69

TEEJ & Spitfireman

Both confident and comprehensive replies. Again, not for the first time I hope that you are both right and I am completely wrong. I've been on this Earth a long time and served in the Armed Forces and as such I have a perspective which maybe you do not share.

I earlier referred to 'grandstanding' and 'posturing' and I still believe that to be the situation. I do not believe, largely for the reasons I've previously given that the order to fire would ever be given in the circumstances under discussion. The death and destruction meted out to a significant portion of the population of a crowded country would be insupportable, especially if, eventually, it was found to be unjustified because, for example, the threat lacked credibility but was believed otherwise or someone simply made a genuine mistake.

The 'fog of war' , 'Sod's Law', the 'law of unintended consequences' could all play their part. Rich ingredients for potential catastrophe. And all of this lined up alongside careful and thorough masking by the terrorists of their preparations leading to a complete surprise attack.

Someone commented that the 9/11 attackers somehow managed to select good weather for their murderous assault - and still the mighty US military could not effect an intercept with their F16s. And if they had, what then ? Does anyone really think that they would have pressed the button or pulled the trigger over one of the most densely populated urban areas on the planet?

Sorry chaps, I'm not at all convinced.

John Green

[Creaking Door]

More propaganda.....I mean, information, from the BBC website:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-17923359

Interestingly, shots of Typhoons forward-based at RAF Northolt and mention of layered-defence; including Rapier.

No criticism of the RAF, or any of the services, from me; they are just doing as they are ordered but I wonder about the political motivation of all this publicity. Maybe people are right; maybe it is for the benefit of the would-be terrorists but I’m not sure how you dissuade a suicide-bomber?

[~Alan~]

Would they really put missiles on roofs, in a built up area ?
Especially as reliability would be an issue, more likely temporary radar.

What could the Typhoons do, that the Apache's couldn't ?
There's been quite a lot of low flying Apache night time activity recently.
ZJ209 flying over tonight.

[Richard gray]

[QUOTE

Someone commented that the 9/11 attackers somehow managed to select good weather for their murderous assault - and still the mighty US military could not effect an intercept with their F16s. And if they had, what then ? Does anyone really think that they would have pressed the button or pulled the trigger over one of the most densely populated urban areas on the planet?

John Green[/QUOTE]

I am one who believes that they would have pressed the button.
Not much use training pilots if they are not going to do their job.

9/11. There was not much the US military could have done about it, as it was over before they knew about it.
This documentry gives an insight of what went on.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/9...es/4od#3316901

Any fully fueled plane crashing into an olympic stadium, where people were sitting/standing, shoulder to shoulder would kill more people, than the debris from a plane after a missle had hit it, even over the most densly populated area. At least the people below would have a brief second to dive for cover.
And then I don't think that it would equal this incident.

Dec. 16, (15.17 hours) - Batt. SS 500, Hellendoorn, Site 400 (Eelerberg - first period), V-2 rocket fired, impacted the crowded Rex Cinema in Antwerp, in the Keyserlei, resulting in 567 casualties to soldiers and civilians, 291 injured and 11 houses were destroyed. 296 of the dead & 194 of the injured were U.S., British, & Canadian soldiers. (This was the single highest death total from one rocket attack during the war in Europe.)

[ppp]

Naw, JSP are useless. Hardly any expansion at all.

Some I had sold were used in an incident involving an armed robbery and a tip-off. One of the perps took two or three rounds and was still running, one of the rounds went through him, out the other side and on to collect a bystander's ankle.

But proper expanding ammo isn't thought to be 'fair' or somesuch. IMHO, to protect the citizenry from stray rounds they should be compulsory

Moggy

I think they do actually use expanding rounds now. I remember reading something in a paper about "bullets that bounce around inside the "terrorist"" being carried by police.

Anybody on here work with 'Blindfire' know the difference?

Baz

Blindfire is a radar.

Would they really put missiles on roofs, in a built up area ?
Especially as reliability would be an issue, more likely temporary radar.

What could the Typhoons do, that the Apache's couldn't ?
There's been quite a lot of low flying Apache night time activity recently.
ZJ209 flying over tonight.

No space for a temporary radar. We're talking a couple guys with shoulder fired rockets.

The Apache couldn't even catch an airliner, it's a helicopter! The Apache is limited to relatively low level operation, Typhoon can fly upto ~60k feet. Apache's radar is meant for tracking tanks and so has high resolution but about 20km range. Typhoon's radar can track targets at ~180km, and airliners at probably 300km++. Apache is capable of being fitted with anti-helicopter missiles, like MANPAD type missiles, not good for most fixed wing aircraft. Typhoon has large, fast missile like AMRAAM for chasing down targets like other fighter jets. If an airliner is to be attacked the RAF first need to chase after it then warn it to turn off, failing that they attack. This means they need to get to it a decent distance out, and need to travel at high speeds, which Typhoon can do, and Apache cannot.

[Moggy C]

I think they do actually use expanding rounds now. I remember reading something in a paper about "bullets that bounce around inside the "terrorist"" being carried by police.

Spot on!

http://www.channel4.com/news/hollow-...for-met-police

About time too.

Moggy

[spitfireman]

Blindfire is a radar.

...bolts onto Rapier, got it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rapier_%28missile%29

interesting.

Baz

[Creaking Door]

I still think that the risk from an airliner 9/11 type attack is almost zero; since the cockpits have been made secure I do not see how even the most determined suicide-bomber could gain control of an aircraft.

If an attack does happen it is far more likely to be somebody on an underground train with a rucksack full of weed-killer; how do you defend against such an attack? Well, you can’t, but a Typhoon on CAP and all the SAM missiles in the world aren’t going to help much.

The attack doesn’t even need to be anywhere near the Olympic complex; just in London during the games will do, the vast majority of the world will not know the difference (or care) and the news-media will do the rest.

I would hope that the West/NATO intervention in Libya may have changed attitudes amongst the radicalised but I doubt it; the fact that most deaths in Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt, Libya, Syria and wherever have been Muslim killing Muslim seems to have escaped their notice!

[John Green]

Richard Gray



Creating perhaps a worse problem when trying to solve a problem, is an exercise in futility.

During 9/11, according to a report, F16s were in the air during the attack. It is reported that they were given the wrong vectors.


John Green

[Lincoln 7]

I still recon that any threat will be at ground level in the most crowded area which, when the games are on, will be virtualy unable to be Policed efficiently.
These terrorist are very clever at making simple yet very deadly devices, which can kill or injure hundreds.Easily hidden, and portable.
Jim.
Lincoln .7

[TEEJ]

John Green wrote

.. served in the Armed Forces and as such I have a perspective which maybe you do not share.

I retired from the RAF in 2007. My perspective is that yes I do believe that those tasked with such a tough decision will do so.

John Green wrote

Someone commented that the 9/11 attackers somehow managed to select good weather for their murderous assault - and still the mighty US military could not effect an intercept with their F16s. And if they had, what then ? Does anyone really think that they would have pressed the button or pulled the trigger over one of the most densely populated urban areas on the planet?

Sorry chaps, I'm not at all convinced.

........

During 9/11, according to a report, F16s were in the air during the attack. It is reported that they were given the wrong vectors.

Yes John. I do. The events of 9/11 happened very fast. Nobody was expecting an internal threat and events to unfold as they did on that day. The Quick Reaction Alert was still geared for an external military threat. See following for interviews from pilots involved. Major Penney and her wingman in essentially unarmed F-16s (100 training cannon rounds each) were prepared to ram any aircraft that did not comply with their instructions.

Major Heather Penney Remembers September 11, 2001

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M81TGnNDMLE

The full interview of Major Penney.

Remembering 9-11 D.C. Air National Guard PART 1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NiO7YRNU9pE

Remembering 9-11 D.C. Air National Guard PART 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-jbv4MAWzkM

http://abcnews.go.com/US/video/sept-...ssion-14472950

Lt. Colonel Dan Nash interview. Dan Nash along with Col Duffey were the first aircraft (F-15s) scrambled in reaction to the ongoing events.

F-15 Pilot from the Mass ANG Recalls Morning of 9/11

See from 09:40 portion where the F-15 Pilot recounts how he would react to shooting down a civilian aircraft.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j7lAJN1rmHk

9/11 10th Anniversary: F-15 pilot Dan Nash recalls response

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.s..._dan_nash.html

9/11 Fighter Pilot Col. Tim Duffy 1 of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=14dapbFWLV8

9/11 Fighter Pilot Col. Tim Duffy 2 of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY47L2mooP4

9/11 Fighter Pilot Col. Tim Duffy 2 of 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VlSsVcURRrs

Apologies for the conspiracy non-sense, but another interview of two Pilots airborne that day.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OB8JE-54Xqc

[~Alan~]

The Apache couldn't even catch an airliner, it's a helicopter! The Apache is limited to relatively low level operation, Typhoon can fly up to ~60k feet.

Glad you pointed that out

[John Green]

Re 80

TEEJ

Thanks for all that. Very sobering. I know that a threat is not really a threat unless it is believed to be credible. Nontheless, I find it difficult to believe that one prevents a problem by creating another perhaps worse one.

It seems to me that the answer is that there isn't an answer. Urban terrorism - as we know to our cost in this country (IRA) - means that human ingenuity will find a way.

I am aware that we have to be seen to be doing something, hence the scary bangs. Others have already commented that 'we are damned if we do' and 'damned if we don't'.

Many years ago, I saw service in a country in the Near East experiencing armed conflict. In spite of aggressive patrolling, non stop vigilance a very good intelligence network and plenty of boots on the streets, we still took casualties - if I'm correct - exceeding the present level of British fatalities in Afghanistan. In spite of thorough precautions and very efficient soldiering, the terrorist still got through.

John Green

[paul178]

NEWSFLASH

There was a Security alert at the London Olympic village today as an old lorry was found parked outside loaded with 10ft lengths of wood, bags of concrete, and many rolls of chicken and barbed wire.

The alert was ended as it was realised that the Irish Fencing team had arrived earlier than expected.



Just had to try and lighten up one thread for a Friday!

[~Alan~]

[paul178]

From 28 days later It jolly secret its in the Daily Express as well

http://www.28dayslater.co.uk/forums/...ad.php?t=70807

[TonyT]

Just picking up on this thread. The MP5 issued to plod are not the fully automatic version, but will fire as fast as you can pull the trigger each time.
A good thing in my opinion when being used in our crowded country.
BTW a good amourer could reconvert it in 5 mins.

My day it was the SLR with a nice wooden stock(or Paddy Wacker as it was known).

And an SLR even quicker