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Thread: how likely a replacement for Sao Paulo carrier for Brasil?

  1. #1
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    how likely a replacement for Sao Paulo carrier for Brasil?

    seeing as how it was brought up in the CVF thread..

    and how a Gripen, Rafale or Super Hornet win could affect Brasilian navy procurement.

  2. #2
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    Well.......going by how....ah......"extended" the process has been to aquire some new combat aircraft for the Air Force has been, I would say a replacement for Sao Paulo would be a long way off.

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    Brazil purchased Minas Gerais (ex-Vengeance) from the UK on 14 December 1956, and commissioned her (after a major modernization in Holland) on on 6 December 1960.

    The Program to build a replacement for her in a Brazilian shipyard began around 1980.

    Eventually, Sao Paulo (ex-Foch) was purchased from France in September 2000, and commissioned on 15 November 2000.

    So you can expect a replacement in no less than 20 years.
    By then, I wouldn't expect Brazil to still be building whatever wins the FX-2 competition. At best Brazil will buy used Rafale/Super Hornet/Tejas or new F-35B or F-35C.
    Last edited by Bager1968; 26th April 2012 at 04:30.

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    It is on their Naval Wishlist, although i think the Nuclear SSN is the highest priority. They have however issued RFI to the European yards regarding proposals for a new Carrier

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bager1968 View Post
    Brazil purchased Minas Gerais (ex-Vengeance) from the UK on 14 December 1956, and commissioned her (after a major modernization in Holland) on on 6 December 1960.

    The Program to build a replacement for her in a Brazilian shipyard began around 1980.

    Eventually, Sao Paulo (ex-Foch) was purchased from France in September 2000, and commissioned on 15 November 2000.

    So you can expect a replacement in no less than 20 years.
    By then, I wouldn't expect Brazil to still be building whatever wins the FX-2 competition. At best Brazil will buy used Rafale/Super Hornet/Tejas or new F-35B or F-35C.
    indeed 2020 is coming soon. A carrier could be useful for a joint Argentine and Brasil attack on the Falklands, which is perhaps a good time for them to buy one of the CVFs from the UK :diablo:

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    Brazil is on course to becoming one of the world's major economies, whereas Argentian is sinking into irrelevance under the deranged Peronism of President Kirchner. She has just managed to alienate Spain by nationalising a major oil company half owned by the Spanish. I can't see why the Brazilians would want to associate theirselves with such a lunatic.

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    no but you get the sense brazil attacking the UK with its own carrier was the point of this spurious thread

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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    indeed 2020 is coming soon. A carrier could be useful for a joint Argentine and Brasil attack on the Falklands, which is perhaps a good time for them to buy one of the CVFs from the UK :diablo:
    No, I meant 20 years FROM NOW!

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    Well, UK CVF aside, we're seeing (indigenous) carrier (replacement) programs in Inda, China and I would think -eventually - in Russia. Thus far, they have the use of a ski-jump in common. We're seeing Naval LCA, Mikg29K, Su33, and J15being used or planned for these.

    Seeing as how Brazil see no problem operating A4 Skyhawks next to the air force's AMX International AMX, Dassault Mirage 2000 and Northrop F-5E/F Tiger II, it is by no means a given that the winner of an air force 'next fighter' contest also gets to be the winner of the next naval fighter contest (however much sense that would make).

    One can envision that 20 years from now Vikramaditya would be paid off, replaced by a domestically designed new-built carrier, and then transferred to Brazil. Likewise for Varyag. Or Kuznetsov.

    Or... going for a newer option ... Brazil pays into one of the three programs to get a new ship, possibly wholly or partly built or fitted out in Brazil.

    Or ... we see a totally domestic development e.g. working with European partners like France, UK, Italy etc Which w/could also mean different A/C.

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    I think that Brazil is more likely to build (with foreign assistance) a CATOBAR carrier or two than buy a third hand STOBAR ship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    I think that Brazil is more likely to build (with foreign assistance) a CATOBAR carrier or two than buy a third hand STOBAR ship.
    And the IAC 2/3 will be CATOBAR as well. China is held back by the lack of catapult technology in Russia.

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    Yes, but I expect that China is discreetly working on catapults, probably electromagnetic.
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    Quote Originally Posted by benroethig View Post
    And the IAC 2/3 will be CATOBAR as well. China is held back by the lack of catapult technology in Russia.
    there is no confirmation regarding catapult on IAC2/3. There is still no definite specification for the ship.

    China is unlikely to be held up due to non availability of catapult technology from Russia. Russia already have steam catapult technology and they even tested it and passed the state acceptance trials.
    China can be held up only if Russians don't want to transfer that steam catapult technology. Or it may just be that Chinese are not interested in steam cat technology.

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    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    I think that Brazil is more likely to build (with foreign assistance) a CATOBAR carrier or two than buy a third hand STOBAR ship.
    Depends on the money situation, I would think. But those 'third hand' ships today are pretty much restored to new condition so third hand is actually second hand (although third owner)

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    Quote Originally Posted by benroethig View Post
    And the IAC 2/3 will be CATOBAR as well. China is held back by the lack of catapult technology in Russia.
    Quote Originally Posted by swerve View Post
    Yes, but I expect that China is discreetly working on catapults, probably electromagnetic.
    Quote Originally Posted by JangBoGo View Post
    China is unlikely to be held up due to non availability of catapult technology from Russia. Russia already have steam catapult technology and they even tested it and passed the state acceptance trials.
    China can be held up only if Russians don't want to transfer that steam catapult technology. Or it may just be that Chinese are not interested in steam cat technology.
    China is producing maglev trains and other such systems.

    They are built by Siemens, but China has a good ability to examine technology and both re-create it and develop new systems from the underlying technology*... as well as to conduct their own original research & development.

    I can easily see China developing their own electromagnetic catapult technology.



    * and then there is the very active Chinese intelligence-gathering within the US defense industry''' since EMALS/AAG are not as "sensitive" as other technologies China has already acquired, I believe they already have some good info for "guidance".

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    Quote Originally Posted by John K View Post
    Brazil is on course to becoming one of the world's major economies, whereas Argentian is sinking into irrelevance under the deranged Peronism of President Kirchner. She has just managed to alienate Spain by nationalising a major oil company half owned by the Spanish. I can't see why the Brazilians would want to associate theirselves with such a lunatic.
    She also stormed out of the Americas conference after her motion to decare the Falklands Argentine was refused, and she was given a through grilling by the Canadian PM.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bager1968 View Post
    * and then there is the very active Chinese intelligence-gathering within the US defense industry''' since EMALS/AAG are not as "sensitive" as other technologies China has already acquired, I believe they already have some good info for "guidance".
    We don't actually know for sure what they have/have not acquired, nor it's completeness, nor whether that information was actually accurate.

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    Well we shouldn't count out what Brazil already has and is obtaining.

    The A-4 they purchased from Kuwait had relatively low flight hours in a VERY dry environment. With they Radar, avionics and missile upgrades they are getting they are getting a credible multi role and BVR combat capability. Partnered up with their new Tracer/Trader AEW/Tankers we are talking a very formidable regional capability in the South Atlantic. No other Latin American country has that kind of capability. Frankly there is no rush to adopt a new type at the moment. There will be a new carrier in the future with a new type embarked but only after Brazil has modernised its ship building capabilities to handle the project. There is some scope to learn from India's IAC program but I think any support for a new carrier is most likely going to come from the French.

    Brazil will more then likely want EMALS and AAG on any future carrier, I can even see them fitting a reactor albeit I see a combined Gas Turbine, Diesel and Nuclear solution.
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    Yep. And those A-4s were the last built, over a decade newer than the French F-8s, operated by Kuwait for well under half the time of the French F-8s, in a far more benign environment (no catapult launches, carrier landings, or salt spray), at a much lower tempo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bager1968 View Post
    China is producing maglev trains and other such systems.

    They are built by Siemens, but China has a good ability to examine technology and both re-create it and develop new systems from the underlying technology... as well as to conduct their own original research & development.

    I can easily see China developing their own electromagnetic catapult technology.
    There are now indigenous Chinese maglev trains, though not yet of the same performance as the Siemens ones. They're not even built by a firm involved in the Siemens ones, but a competitor. They're certainly doing their own R&D.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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