Spitfires From Burma / Myanmar (or not?)

[Mark_pilkington]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark_pilkington
?? ?

I Is there anything, other than oral stories, to support the rumours of burial?

How conclusive are the recent scans
- can you see spitfire structure outlines? or just box outlines?
Has any of the recent scanned sites been excavated? and found a Spitfire?
(Mark12's comments above suggest no? as he says the evidence so far suggests its worth an exploratory excavation? implying none has yet occured)

I have also examined the scans and they do not show 'boxes' as such (the scanning process is designed to highlight metal) - what they do clearly show is a row of metallic, roughly fuselage shaped objects, side by side which scale to about 25 to 30 feet long. As M12 says this is more than ample evidence for an exploratory dig to take place. Hopefully this will happen shortly.

Thankyou for sharing that information, it certainly does therefore encourage an exploratory dig, and hopefully if that happens shortly will reveal what the structures actually are, and their condition.

I do accept this project has been going on for many years and subject to significant research of records, witness statements and the site.

I understand the site was previously a erection and maintenance base for imported P-40's during the war.

Is there any risk these objects could be the remains of types other than spitfires? (ie what aircraft were operated from the site?)

Is there yet any line up of formal records that explain unaccounted spitfires being in the area? (noting the varying accounts of the spitfire model?)

Looks as though someone at the Daily Mail has finally done some proper research! The story itself has not changed, but the accompanying picture now shows correct "period" markings on two Spitfires in SEAC colours - codes visible as "X-AF" and "P-AF".

Those, by the way, are the squadron codes for 607 (County of Durham) Squadron. Which did serve in India and the Far East, operated Spitfire Mk. VIIIs from March 1944, and disbanded on 19 August 1945 at...Mingaladon, Burma.

That has to be a co-incidence surely? (Or perhaps not!)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-make-fly.html

Edit - missed that post during my first read through, and yes it seems to answer my remaining questions above.

So we all wait to see whats uncovered in the end of the big hole in the ground.


Regards

Mark Pilkington

[Dr. John Smith]

Presuming that the aircraft were ex-607 (County of Durham) Squadron - and that seems to 'fit' in terms of where and when - then this should be of interest: http://www.colonialfilm.org.uk/node/2304 ,quote:

"Air Vice Marshal (AVM) Cecil Bouchier addresses airmen on the occasion of the disbandment of RAF 607 (County of Durham) Squadron at Mingaladon airfield, near Rangoon, Burma. [On 31/7/1945]

A woman of the Women's Auxiliary Service (Burma) (a so-called 'WAS(B)') slicing a cake. Airmen gather around a WAS(B) mobile canteen. Flight Lieutenant Donald Nicholson, pilot of Spitfire Mk VIII JG534 AF:Z, climbs out of his aircraft after completing the squadron's final sortie. Nicholson greeted by AVM Bouchier. A jovial-looking Bouchier given a mug of tea. The WAS(B)s distribute tea and slices of cake. Spitfire VIII AF:C MV208 taxiing with two more Spitfires behind. A staff car arrives and AVM Bouchier and an Air Commodore get out. Bouchier informally addresses the men of the squadron standing on the bonnet of a jeep. He shakes hands with one of the airmen.

The squadron's 'bag' of enemy aircraft was the largest of any squadron in South East Asia Command. The squadron had been in action against the Japanese for three years, and up until its disbandment, was heavily engaged in the Battle of the Sittang Bend. This battle would be the last major battle in Burma, seeing 11,500 Japanese killed, before the surrender on 15 August 1945."

So that two definite serials - JG534, and MV208. What became of these two aircraft? Not say that they amongst those buried, but it is a clue...

[OHOPE]

JG534 SOC 14 3 1946
MV208 Crashed 3 7 1946

[Mark12]

Try thinking outside the box (crate).

I am comfortable with the timing, movement cards, geography and the rationale.

Time will tell.

Mark

[Easyrider5258]

Time will tell indeed

This is another fantasy, Remember Miss Belvedere, the ’57 Plymouth that the fine folks of Tulsa buried in optimum condition when it was new, when excavated 50 years later it was a wreck, any hope of recovering anything more useful than some rusty data plates from that moonson ridden place is dreaming

Time will tell indeed










.

[SimonBrown]

I can imagine a conversation something like this:-

President of Burma; Good news Dave...we have found the spitfires. All of them...
PM of UK; Excellent news...now you can send them back here and we will restore the lot back to flying condition...shall I send a few containers over?
President of Burma; Well, its not quite as easy as that...
PM of UK; Why not?
President of Burma; There is an embargo on military exports and we can't send them out...after all they are military aircraft.
PM of UK; But they are getting on for 70 years old...
President of Burma; Well yes but rules are rules...
PM of UK; Ah. Yes...indeed. I see.
President of Burma; But we could send them over no problem...if you could have a word with your EU friends and get this embargo lifted...I mean, its all for a good cause...airworthy spitfires would be a great addition to the UK...
PM of UK; Yup. Good idea. Lift the military equipment embargo...right, let me get William on the case...

[Tangmere1940]

Easyrider...

The only thing about this tale that certainly is fantasy, I would suggest, is that these might be pristine Spitfires sitting in their own little time capsule and just need a bit of dusting, cleaning and cosmetic work. However, that is rather the spin the newspapers have put on things.

The condition (if they are found) might well be mangled and corroded. But if the firewalls and data plates are there....well....need I say more?

Time will certainly tell.

[Dave Homewood]

Great news.

A lot of responses from people here remind me of the village folk in that old fable "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", they have heard it so often and nothing comes of it, so when it might just actually be true they choose not to believe it.

[Alan Key]

Can we send Cameron to Russia next to start negotiating the release of the alleged Stirling? :diablo:

[Dobbins]

Can we send Cameron to Russia next to start negotiating the release of the alleged Stirling? :diablo:

Maybe we could swap Cameron for the Stirling...

[Bruce]

Great news.

A lot of responses from people here remind me of the village folk in that old fable "The Boy Who Cried Wolf", they have heard it so often and nothing comes of it, so when it might just actually be true they choose not to believe it.

I dont think there is any reason to be other than cautious just yet!

Time will tell; if they are there, and can be recovered, then great. What may or may not remain after all this time remains a moot point; until the digging starts, we just dont know, so it is pointless making statements on possible condition until then. After all, some digs of aircraft that have crashed from several thousands of feet have revealed parts in superb (albeit bent) condition. They have often sat in bogs, but the exclusion of oxygen has been critical to their survival.

Someone asked if you could configure a Mk XIV as a MK VIII. Well, you could, but I'm not sure how that would sit with the authorities. If the structure turns out to be usable, then it would be a shame to lose a lot of it in the conversion. If we are looking at expensive data plates, that might be another issue.

I wonder too where it might go if, after the first 'shape' is excavated, and an aircraft is found, but is little more than Alox and fittings. Will they bother with the other 19?



Bruce

[Alan Key]

"Maybe we could swap Cameron for the Stirling..."

Good idea but that would leave us with Hague in charge..........

[trumper]

You could get 20 data plates in hand luggage surely

[Bruce]

"Maybe we could swap Cameron for the Stirling..."

Good idea but that would leave us with Hague in charge..........

Be better to swap the entire labour front bench. They couldnt come back and screw things up again then.....

[scotavia]

Splendid news, another example of determination and I hope the conclusion of this project results in more flyers.

[Tin Triangle]

I think one can hardly blame people on this forum for being naturally cautious, and even a little cynical. Past threads are thick with tales of buried/barn find/lost in the Far East aircraft, the majority of which have turned out to be hoaxes varying from the faintly plausible to the ridiculous! The "cry wolf" analogy is a good one.

This story may well turn out to be different, and for my part I very much hope it does. Good luck to all actually trying to solve the mystery one way or the other!
I for one feel very differently about it (compared to similar stories from the past) given the obvious enthusiasm of Mark12 and Tangmere1940, whom I think we can definitely trust to know what they're on about. Still, nobody yet knows what (if anything) will be found, and until then we can surely certainly understand people who are scpetical that nothing more will result than a pile of rusty bolts and aluminium dust...
Time will tell!

[Chitts]

It's worth bearing in mind that a previous PM, a certain T Blair, or more correctly TB liar, waged war in Irag but failed to secure one Fury airframe for preservation. Maybe Mr Cameron indulging in a bit of diplomacy might indeed yield better results for everyone including the Burmese people, and not just for saving corroded lumps of Spitfire (or at least their data plates!)

As Churchill said, "Jaw Jaw, not War War".

[David Burke]

Ahh that explains it! Blair's legacy of not managing to secure an Iraqi Fury has haunted the Labour party ever since! Cameron quick to stake his place in preservation history (and secure a second term) has realised that he must help liberate Spitfires and favour the fickle political allegiances of the FlyPast forum members!

[SimonDav]

at the risk of thread drift, what did happen to the Iraqi Sea Fury?

[Tangmere1940]

The fact of the matter is that one has to applaud, I think, those with the determenitation and drive to carry a project like this forward. And, of course, for having the courage to risk the money on such a scheme. All credit to them, I say.

Of course, scepticism is understandable, and again, we will have to wait and see. It might be a pile of useless junk, or not even Spitfires, but it could be a treasure trove. I think the only certain thing in all of this is that those involved firmly believe from the evidence thus far that it is worth risking their money. It isn't like TIGHAR who just risk, use and lose other people's money. The evidence that some have seen is pretty convincing. I think it is reasonable to have a high-ish degree of optimism. I'm hoping for the best, and yet failure would not be a surprise (to me) either. As I say...good luck to them.

I suppose the other factors in all of this that are important are these:

1)What are the chances that Cameron would have floated this idea at all unless HMG had seen and felt satisfied by the evidence thus far? Probably zero.
2)What are the chances that such a large sum of private money would be risked if this was all a pipe dream? Definitely much less than zero.

Just my view....

[Roobarb]

at the risk of thread drift, what did happen to the Iraqi Sea Fury?

Wasn't it at St Mawgen/or was it Boscombe?

[Tango Charlie]

From what I have read here and elsewhere tons of aero parts were buried on or near airfields after hostilities ceased here and abroad, so why not complete airframes?

Even unopened shipping cases with an airframe inside fully inhibited will have suffered over time. The expected course is for anything buried to gradually return to the soil!

I cannot imagine that the packing cases were anymore then lightish weight timber panels held together by a heavier softwood framework most probably with steel straps keeping everything together.

One could hope that the boxes were stacked five in a row x four rows deep giving the middle boxes a better chance of survival but unlikely.

Anyway its a fascinating story and like hundreds probably thousands of others we all want to see 20+ boxes emerge with near perfect Spitfires inside, so its now wait and see.

[sopwith.7f1]

I wonder how big his donation to the Tory party coffers will be ?, as that seems to be the only way to arrange for the PM "or any other politician for that matter", to ask a question such as this. :diablo::diablo:

Bob T.

[DCK]

The fact of the matter is that one has to applaud, I think, those with the determenitation and drive to carry a project like this forward. And, of course, for having the courage to risk the money on such a scheme. All credit to them, I say.

Of course, scepticism is understandable, and again, we will have to wait and see. It might be a pile of useless junk, or not even Spitfires, but it could be a treasure trove. I think the only certain thing in all of this is that those involved firmly believe from the evidence thus far that it is worth risking their money. It isn't like TIGHAR who just risk, use and lose other people's money. The evidence that some have seen is pretty convincing. I think it is reasonable to have a high-ish degree of optimism. I'm hoping for the best, and yet failure would not be a surprise (to me) either. As I say...good luck to them.

I suppose the other factors in all of this that are important are these:

1)What are the chances that Cameron would have floated this idea at all unless HMG had seen and felt satisfied by the evidence thus far? Probably zero.
2)What are the chances that such a large sum of private money would be risked if this was all a pipe dream? Definitely much less than zero.

Just my view....

Just your view but the voice of reason.

[GrahamF]

Just because we are 'into' Spitfires doesn't mean everybody else is, I'm sure the Burmese government are not worried if the restoration companies at Dux etc haven't got enough supplies of restorable airframes.
I bet Cameron couldn't differentiate a Spifire from a Stuka, remember that lot are not the brightest of chaps.
N.B Look at what happened to the Syrian Mk 22 Spifires, they did exist and a guy from the US went to look at them, but
try and find photos apart from the one blurred image on the web or try and get any more details of this visit, there is absolutely nothing.

[Dobbins]

Cameron knows that everyone in this country gets excited by the word 'Sptifire' so this will no doubt help to quell the furore over the petrol crisis and pastygate. A PR dream surely?

[GrahamF]

Cameron knows that everyone in this country gets excited by the word 'Sptifire' so this will no doubt help to quell the furore over the petrol crisis and pastygate. A PR dream surely?

I just can't see it somehow, Imagine Cameron discussing the future of Burma's democracy and then says " now about these Spifires? " This has to be hogwash.

[Bruce]

Hardly, this will have been the subject of diplomatic discussions for some time.

It is however a useful PR stunt, and would be tempting for a politician of any colour (trying to keep some balance here!!)


Bruce

[Tangmere1940]

What we have not been told is that each Spitfire has full tanks.

Its probably all part of HMG's contingency plans to safeguard fuel supplies in the event of a tanker driver's strike.

[D1566]

1)What are the chances that Cameron would have floated this idea at all unless HMG had seen and felt satisfied by the evidence thus far? Probably zero.

Given their seemingly tenuous grip on most subjects (IMHO) I would imagine that they would latch on to something with the potential to provide oodles of Rule Britannia type glory without too much hesitation or forethought. (The other team would be just as likely to have done the same in the circumstances) ...