Spitfires From Burma / Myanmar (or not?)

[633squad]

Hello,

Cameron has probably been told they could be converted into SEAfires,
that would give the goverment something to put on the new carriers

Cheers

633

[Mark_pilkington]

When Mark 12 makes a posting like that, I'd suggest to these who are complete cynics that it might be better to sit back and see what happens.

I'm happy to, and do respect Mark12's comments (and his opinion) that he has seen some ground scans of buried boxes or objects, but I'm not sure yet that he is stating they are definately boxed spitfires, or intact and recoverable, but yes time will reveal all. I would be pleased that they are, and my opinion, views or support wont influence the outcome in anycase.

But I do understand there were ground scans produced by the proponents of the Bundaberg bunker too, but strangely the bunker didnt "materialise", and lets not say anymore about the recent Lockheed Electra undercarriage "found" by ROV underwater imaging by Tighar, and there are always committed proponents who are convinced their information is infallable.

Obviously "this story" may have evidence unseen by us "mere skeptics" to provide it more credibility than others, given the ability to influence the British PM to raise it diplomatically, but the basic premise that 20 aircraft were buried in case the Japanese over-ran Burma again is rather far fetched and therefore encourages the cynics in us.

If they are there, and recoverable - great news,
if not, its just another buried treasure hoax, as simple as that,
and clearly we will all know one way or the other in the near future.

smiles

Mark Pilkington

[DCK]

First Burma, then Syria and then we go to China for the Stirling.

[Mark_pilkington]

First Burma, then Syria and then we go to China for the Stirling.

And of course the Stirlings buried in Egypt and the uncharted wrecks of Baltimores etc sitting in the Libyan desert too. Will LBG be relocated to the Smithonian? as part of the US share of the spoils?


Obviously this has been the whole basis of Western governments' support of freedom fighters and opposition parties in the Arab Spring and other previous activity in the Middle East - the US, UK and French governments are wanting to complete their National Collections. With 'hind'sight its clear the UK and the EU were part of the coalition of willing into Afganistan to get their hands on the remaining Furies, more Hinds and some IMAM Ro-37s.

Clearly that only leaves North Korea and Cuba, as remaining targets and as there are few if any gems in North Korea worth getting we must assume Cuba will be the next domino to fall, clearly the recent Pope visit was a recon mission.


smiles

Mark Pilkington

[RN Phantom]

Interesting story hopefully it turns out to be true. An old school friend of mine was one of the team that retrieved the Spit from a Donegal bog last year, he couldn't get over the fact that a Browning is taller than him, though he is a bit on the short side!

[Mark12]

, but the basic premise that 20 aircraft were buried in case the Japanese over-ran Burma again is rather far fetched and therefore encourages the cynics in us.
Mark Pilkington

I think this is 'paper-talk'.

A more likely scenario in my view would be the uncertainties of the politics of the region post WWII, General Aung San, the Burmese Communist party, the end of British Colonial rule leading up to the separation of India in 1947, etc etc.

The evidence to date is worthy of an exploratory dig.

Mark

[DCK]

I think this is 'paper-talk'.

A more likely scenario in my view would be the uncertainties of the politics of the region post WWII, General Aung San, the Burmese Communist party, the end of British Colonial rule leading up to the separation of India in 1947, etc etc.

The evidence to date is worthy of an exploratory dig.

Mark

So there you go, and I think we can settle with the fact there is something to this which is worth investigating.

[Newforest]

Surely this explosion of the Spitfire/Seafire population will produce a depression in the market and their values will be decreased? (If found

[vacb]

This really is excellent news.

Where do I put my name down for one?

[ant]

So if and when, How much is it going to cost the British taxpayer should the plan of the PM's come to anything
I find that I have become even more cynical as the years advance; as to why we need more spitfires? If so why not build from scratch.

What about anymore Hurricanes, Halifaxs and many others that have disappeared; some with out any trace.

The whole thing sounds very ominous to me. Won't get many new voters perhaps.

[Moggy C]

If so why not build from scratch.

Effectively this is what is currently done.

But in order to fly they need an existing identity. You can restore a WW2 aircraft and the CAA will (eventually) be happy to allow you to fly it. Recreate a WW2 aircraft and it will be half-past WW3 before the paperwork is completed.

Moggy

[Fluffy]

'The planes were buried in 1945 by the RAF amid fears that they could either be used or destroyed by Japanese forces, but in the intervening years they have not been located'

Buried by the RAF means more Spits for BBMF then

[633squad]

Hello,

As to how much, correct me if I am wrong but arent these still the property of HMG ? if so biggest cost will be getting them back to the U.K. (how many crated spitfires could a C 17 carry ?)

Then i presume they would to sold to the highest bidders, with the proceeds going to the treasury.

If so, it shouldnt cost the taxpayer anything.

Cheers

633

[92fis]

'The planes were buried in 1945 by the RAF amid fears that they could either be used or destroyed by Japanese forces, but in the intervening years they have not been located'

Buried by the RAF means more Spits for BBMF then

I think you should balance things up with another Hurricane or two first.

[DCK]

I'm more than surprised, that at a board like this, people find ways to be negative about a possible 20 (!!) Spitfires being resurrected from the dead.

Now that's more shocking to me than 20 Spits in Burma.

[Tangmere1940]

I don't think that anyone has seriously suggested the British taxpayer is likely to be stumping up, have they??

As to being owned by HMG....hmmmm. Well, thats a moot point. It may well depend upon the sovereign laws of Burma (and any deal struck by HMG with the Burmese, of course!) but, as a rule, I think the MOD/HMG might be hard pressed to lay claim to these - if push came to shove.

In 1974 I had a letter from the MOD stating they had abandoned all claim to lost WW2 (RAF) aircraft. In the 1980s a similar one stating they had no interest in aircraft wrecks abroad. Of course, since then they have shifted their position somewhat! That said, it has never been tested in court. And I doubt the MOD would want to, frankly. All sorts of issues arise; abandonement, struck off charge, landowners rights and a myriad other issues. It is something I have looked into extensively and have bulging files on the topic.

That said, none of this is probably relevant to Burma. But since it was raised....

[Collis]

I don't suppose they crated back up Ginger's RN135 did they?

No, these are the ones Ginger Lacey rejected while waiting for proper highback mark XIV Spitfires to arrive.

[Sq/L Scramble.]

The story according to the daily Telegraph today:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ned-to-UK.html

[xtangomike]

Where there is smoke there is usually fire....Mk12 knows more than most of us on this thread.....I am happy to follow his readings and....ooops, a you dropped your lighter sir!!!!

[Dunbar]

From the Telegraph:

"A team from the UK is already in place and is expecting to begin the excavation, estimated to cost around £500,000, imminently. It is being funded by the Chichester-based Boultbee Flight Acadamy."

So it won't cost the taxpayer a penny. But...if you have a PPL and go throughout the Boultbee training course, you might get to fly one

Boultbee have moved from Oxford and will be operating from Goodwood Hangar 8 in 2012. Fantastic that Spitfires will now be based again at the former RAF Westhampnet.

[Mark_pilkington]

Lets not count our "spitfires" until they are unearthed let alone restored
- smiles

Here is a 2001 report that seems to provide more information than is currently being released....

Race is on to find buried ‘treasures’ – Spitfires worth £6m

ENCASED in containers for 56 long years they have quietly decayed away, their once shining propellors and wings gathering mould in their underground tomb. Outside the temperature is in the 90s as passenger jets take off in the shimmering heat.

The scene is Mingaladon airport, Myanmar, formerly Burma, and according to farmer and inventor David Cundall hidden 6ft under the airfield are 12 brand new Spitfires, abandoned in 1945 and now worth a cool £6m.

Mr Cundall’s dream is to excavate the crates, restore the Spitfires, and finally see them fly again.

The farmer and inventor first heard stories about the aircraft 20 years ago, but only started researching them in earnest after a friend and former Spitfire pilot met some American veterans who described digging a trench for the aircraft during the Allied withdrawal of Burma.

Through his own work at the public records office at Kew and by placing advertisements in specialist magazines Mr Cundall, who invents farm machinery for a living, has been able to contact seven eyewitnesses, who have confirmed the story.

The aircraft were abandoned on the orders of Louis Mountbatten, the head of South East Asia Command, two weeks before the atomic bombs were dropped in August 1945, ending the Second World War.

Knowing exactly where to dig is the problem when work could undermine the stability of the adjacent international runway.

Another snag is that an Israeli competitor is on the case and has been given permission to make a search.

Mr Cundall, 51, who lives in North Lincolnshire, has been out to Burma six times and has worked closely with the military authorities. He said: “We have an agreement with the military that we have our share and they have their share.

“What we really want to do is restore them and have them flying again.”

Mr Cundall – who describes his hobby as “digging up crashed aircraft” – is working with Dr Roger Clark, the head of earth sciences at Leeds University to analyse data from a ground penetrating radar which has been used to survey the 10-acre site. The radar has shown up “boxed shape images” which Mr Cundall believes are the outlines of the containers.
He added: “The story I originally heard was that in August 1945 a group from a construction battalion were passing through Rangoon on the way to Singapore and they were asked to bury 12 planes – they actually questioned the order as it was so unusual.

“When I heard this many years ago Burma was a closed country. I advertised extensively and come up with seven eyewitnesses and 20 who know about the burials.

“Seventy per cent of the area has been searched, and another eyewitness who came along last year is positive he knows where they are and has sent me maps and an outline.

“However, the Burmese say we need more eyewitnesses to exactly pinpoint the place otherwise they’re not going to let us dig. They’re worried about undermining the foundations of the airfield.

“We also have a competitor, an Israeli pilot, who has paid a substantial amount of money to gain the contract to excavate the Spitfires. But his contract expires this month – and with a bit of luck we might be going back out in a week or 10 days.’’

Principal keeper of archaeology at North Lincolnshire Museum Kevin Leahy said the wings and fuselages were made out of thin aluminium and could have crumbled away – but if they were covered in grease and oil, or wax paper ready for a sea transit, they could be all right.

Mr Cundall needs more letters from eyewitnesses spelling out the exact location to convince the military. Anyone who can help is asked to contact him via the Yorkshire Post Hull office at Regent House, Ferensway, Hull, HU1 3PT or by e-mailing alex.wood@ypn.co.uk.

http://www.yorkshiretoday.co.uk/View...ticleID=192571

09 May 2001

Still all sounds very reminiscent of the Bundaberg Bunker to me.
(it must be time for BunkerBernie to make a return - smiles)
http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=79799

of course since 2001 one or more of the sites may have been excavated and the contents confirmed, & in anycase they have multiplied in captivity from 12 to 20! - I guess we will find out soon enough.

EDIT - I hadnt read the latest Newpaper article linked above which claims they were "found" in February,
so on that basis it would appear its claimed they definately exist?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...ned-to-UK.html

The Prime Minister secured a historic deal that will see the fighter aircraft dug up and shipped back to the UK almost 67 years after they were hidden more than 40-feet below ground amid fears of a Japanese occupation.

The gesture came as Mr Cameron became the first Western leader to meet Aung San Suu Kyi, the Burmese democracy campaigner held under house arrest for 22 years by the military regime, and invited her to visit London in her first trip abroad for 24 years.

He called on Europe to suspend its ban on trade with Burma now that it was showing “prospects for change” following Miss Suu Kyi’s election to parliament in a sweeping electoral victory earlier this year.

The plight of the buried aircraft came to Mr Cameron’s attention at the behest of a farmer from Scunthorpe, North Lincs, who is responsible for locating them at a former RAF base using radar imaging technology.

David Cundall, 62, spent 15 years doggedly searching for the Mk II planes, an exercise that involved 12 trips to Burma and cost him more than £130,000.

When he finally managed to locate them in February, he was told Mr Cameron “loved” the project and would intervene to secure their repatriation.

Mr Cundall told the Daily Telegraph: “I’m only a small farmer, I’m not a multi-millionaire and it has been a struggle. It took me more than 15 years but I finally found them.

”Spitfires are beautiful aeroplanes and should not be rotting away in a foreign land. They saved our neck in the Battle of Britain and they should be preserved.”

He said the Spitfires, of which there are only around 35 flying left in the world, were shipped to Burma and then transported by rail to the British RAF base during the war.

However, advances in technology and the emergence of more agile jets meant they were never used and in July 1945, officials fearing a Japanese occupation abandoned them on the orders of Lord Louis Mountbatten, the head of South East Asia Command, two weeks before the atom bombs were dropped, ending the conflict.

“They were just buried there in transport crates,” Mr Cundall said. “They were waxed, wrapped in greased paper and their joints tarred. They will be in near perfect condition.”

The married father of three, an avid plane enthusiast, embarked on his voyage of discovery in 1996 after being told of their existence by a friend who had met some American veterans who described digging a trench for the aircraft during the Allied withdrawal of Burma.

He spent years appealing for information on their whereabouts from eye witnesses, scouring public records and placing advertisements in specialist magazines.

Several early trips to Burma were unsuccessful and were hampered by the political climate.

He eventually met one eyewitness who drew maps and an outline of where the aircraft were buried and took him out to the scene.

“Unfortunately, he got his north, south, east and west muddled up and we were searching at the wrong end of the runway,” he said.

“We also realised that we were not searching deep enough as they had filled in all of these bomb craters which were 20-feet to start with.

“I hired another machine in the UK that went down to 40-feet and after going back surveying the land many times, I eventually found them.

“I have been in touch with British officials in Burma and in London and was told that David Cameron would negotiate on my behalf to make the recovery happen.”

Mr Cundall said sanctions preventing the removal of military tools from Burma were due to be lifted at midnight last night (FRI).

A team from the UK is already in place and is expecting to begin the excavation, estimated to cost around £500,000, imminently. It is being funded by the Chichester-based Boultbee Flight Acadamy.

Mr Cundall said the government had promised him it would be making no claim on the aircraft, of which 21,000 were originally produced, and that he would be entitled to a share in them.

“It’s been a financial nightmare but hopefully I’ll get my money back,” he said.

“I’m hoping the discovery will generate some jobs. They will need to be stripped down and re-riveted but it must be done. My dream is to have a flying squadron at air shows.”

So this article clearly has Mr Cundall claiming they have actually been evidenced? to exist?
But is that by exploratory excavation? with positive identification
or simply deeper earth penetrating scans? locating box shaped objects 40' deep in the ground?
(although strangely, the 2001 article claims box shaped objects had already been scanned back then?)

I guess after the pending expenditure of £500,000 pounds to begin excavations everyone will know for sure! or will they?
When the scans at Bundaberg didnt yield anything at the dig sites, the "depth" of the secret bunker was simply revised downwards.

Smiles

Mark Pilkington

[MK959]

There is always people to criticize - that's life.
I can't find evidences in the articles where the UK MoD is involved and paying for the recovery.
It looks like however Boultbee is involved.
Anyway, if its turned to be true, good news!

[ErrolC]

I think you should balance things up with another Hurricane or two first.

We'll swap you the Wanaka Hurri for two Spits!

[Creaking Door]

It would be nice to think that the Prime Minister would make the same effort with the new government of Egypt to save HMS Whimbrel, the last surviving WW2 Battle-of-the-Atlantic sloop, but I doubt that will happen.

In a matter of days HMS Plymouth, the last Falklands veteran in British hands, will be off to a Turkish scrapyard.

Heresy I know, but do we really need another twenty Spitfires; only thirty-five flying out of a total world population of, what, two-hundred? All great fun, and I’d rather have them recovered than not, but from a historical point-of-view or as a memorial to those that gave their lives during the war it would be nice if government put more emphasis on something a little less glamorous (and dare I say it, a little more worthy).

[David Burke]

Cannot quite see the Spitfire being the most important aircraft in aviation history ! Got to feel that Wilbur and Orville and their Flyer eclipses it !

[Dunbar]

Lets not count our "spitfires" until they are unearthed let alone restored
- smiles

Quite agree that it's a little early to be considering the Mk 14s, but the Spitfires I was referring to are SM520 and very possibly another that will be moving to Goodwood in the next month or so

Cheers

[Lincoln 7]

As I think that it was the Hurricane that won the B of B, no so much the Spit, although the Spit was a great fighter, I would like to have seen "20" Hurricans found".

Whats that, that Merlin Pete says, "If I had a pound for every time somewon told me they knew where a Merlin was buried..........looks like your in for 20 quid Pete
Jim.
Lincoln .7

[ppp]

Will probably end up in some rich guy's house

[~Alan~]

I see that one poster on the Telegraph website has suggested that there are
no Spitfires there, and that all has been found are empty crates.

Why would anyone bury empty crates ?

[VX927]

Personally, I'm shocked (and slightly saddened) that the British government gave any buried spitfires the time of day given on such a symbolic visit to Burma. There are far more important things in Burma to be worried about than digging up spitfires.

Great news if it happens, but not sure that it justified being so far up the agenda.