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Thread: Burma Spitfires - Discussion

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by VX927 View Post
    Personally, I'm shocked (and slightly saddened) that the British government gave any buried spitfires the time of day given on such a symbolic visit to Burma. There are far more important things in Burma to be worried about than digging up spitfires.

    Great news if it happens, but not sure that it justified being so far up the agenda.
    Perhaps best not to under estimate the value of a 'good feel' non-controversial inter-Government news story, released at an historic time like yesterday.

    It is called 'spin'... and it is working.

    Mark
    "...the story had been forensically examined and was deeply impressive. I knew that the whole story was a load of myth and baloney…"

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by VX927 View Post
    Personally, I'm shocked (and slightly saddened) that the British government gave any buried spitfires the time of day given on such a symbolic visit to Burma. There are far more important things in Burma to be worried about than digging up spitfires.

    Great news if it happens, but not sure that it justified being so far up the agenda.
    or you could view it as a relatively non-controversial way of building trust and rapport leading to a further thawing of relations
    jeepman

  3. #63
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    Quote Originally Posted by VX927 View Post
    Personally, I'm shocked (and slightly saddened) that the British government gave any buried spitfires the time of day given on such a symbolic visit to Burma. There are far more important things in Burma to be worried about than digging up spitfires.

    Great news if it happens, but not sure that it justified being so far up the agenda.
    I'm not shocked, it's a great opportunity to put the PM in the same sentence as a British icon. What politician could resist that!

    Richard

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by ~Alan~ View Post
    Why would anyone bury empty crates ?
    "To avoid the Japanese finding and using them if they re-invaded Burma after overcoming the US Navy's blockaide of Japan, incendary bombing attacks on its airfields/ports/factories and cities and of course the pending A bomb attacks"

    Empty Crates can come in mighty handy - smiles.

    It is reasonable that unused aircraft still in their crates might be used as fill to repair bomb craters on a war ravished airfield, after the conflict and when there is little prospect of the aircraft being uncrated and required, or even when the uncrated aircraft are to be "disposed of".

    Far more reasonable than the suggestion of burying them for later use!
    Which the more you contemplate it, the more rediculous it is.

    "Sir we are being invaded and are under attack",
    - "quick man, get the excavator and scramble the squadron!"



    Its also reasonable for empty crates filled with lots of rubbish/rubble and other waste to be used as fill to repair bomb craters etc.

    It shouldnt take long now to resolve this story one way or another.

    I imagine given the PM endorsement of the project there will be keen media interest in covering the excavations and recoveries.

    Regards

    Mark Pilkington
    Last edited by Mark_pilkington; 14th April 2012 at 11:46.
    "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

  5. #65
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    Am having problems with the concept of these crates being 40 feet down (even given the suggestion that they were buried at the bottom of 20' bomb craters - or have I read that wrong?) An invasion scare? "OK lets dig some really deep holes and put the spitfires in them" ...
    Martin

  6. #66
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    ... and did the JAF actually have the means to bomb airfields in Burma by 1945?
    Martin

  7. #67
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    I do hope the farmer gets to see them and some of his money back, he has gone out on a limb over this and kudos to him for doing it.

  8. #68
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    The UK government has ploughed £185 million into Burma in the last three years through non direct aid. The Spitfire deal is tiny in comparison to what various companies and governments will be trying to do trade wise .

    Tony -if you work on a guess of a Spitfire XIV as a kit of parts being in the 200-250K region and there is twenty of them it shouldnt be too bad for the parties involved if it works !
    Last edited by David Burke; 14th April 2012 at 11:36.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dunbar View Post
    ...... And many will benefit from this.......
    If it comes to pass, what will it do to existing Spitfire prices - they won't go up for sure.

    Roger Smith.
    A Blenheim, Beaufighter and Beaufort - together in one Museum. Who'd have thought that possible in 1967?

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by VX927 View Post
    Personally, I'm shocked (and slightly saddened) that the British government gave any buried spitfires the time of day given on such a symbolic visit to Burma. There are far more important things in Burma to be worried about than digging up spitfires.

    Great news if it happens, but not sure that it justified being so far up the agenda.
    I agree.

  11. #71
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    Roger - I cannot recall them ever going down in price!!

    Of course a recoverer can control the supply and not flood the market or even scrap a few as might have happened to the Indian Tempests!

  12. #72
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark12 View Post
    Perhaps best not to under estimate the value of a 'good feel' non-controversial inter-Government news story, released at an historic time like yesterday.

    It is called 'spin'... and it is working.

    Mark
    Absolutely. It's also symbolic.
    Author explaining the state of historic aviation;

    "[...] I don't get any fangirls, just old guys trying to tell me stuff I already know."

  13. #73
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    Symbolic of what?? Its a country that needs rebuilding and still has issues with people in detention ! There is a lot of work to be done in a country that
    isnt by a stretch of the imagination a rock solid democracy!

  14. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Burke View Post
    Symbolic of what?? Its a country that needs rebuilding and still has issues with people in detention ! There is a lot of work to be done in a country that
    isnt by a stretch of the imagination a rock solid democracy!
    Could you e-mail me Camerons list of agendas in Burma please? It seems according to you he listed it like this;

    1. Spitfires
    2. Everything else (if enough time)
    Author explaining the state of historic aviation;

    "[...] I don't get any fangirls, just old guys trying to tell me stuff I already know."

  15. #75
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    Cameron has a chartered 747 for the trip which seems to have raised a few eyebrows in the press. The Spitfire story has now as you have probably noticed overshadowed everything else about the trip including the 747!

    If you hadnt noticed the press love these romantic stories of Spitfires recovered against the odds in a kind of 'Indiana Jones' style and often people
    find them more interesting in the Mail than the reality on the ground in these countries!

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Burke View Post
    Cameron has a chartered 747 for the trip which seems to have raised a few eyebrows in the press. The Spitfire story has now as you have probably noticed overshadowed everything else about the trip including the 747!

    If you hadnt noticed the press love these romantic stories of Spitfires recovered against the odds in a kind of 'Indiana Jones' style and often people
    find them more interesting in the Mail than the reality on the ground in these countries!
    Yeah, let's just forget about it.
    Author explaining the state of historic aviation;

    "[...] I don't get any fangirls, just old guys trying to tell me stuff I already know."

  17. #77
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    I bet you Cameron has only intervened as he's away to charge VAT on imported Spitfires, similar to his pasty tax.

    George Osbourne will be frothing at the mouth, knowing people will pay it to get them back to the UK.

    :diablo:

    Kind Regards,
    Scotty
    "I've never killed a man, but I've read many obituaries with a great deal of satisfaction" - Mark Twain

  18. #78
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    What's wrong with us?! Myself included, our first reactions it seems consist of cynicism, negativity and criticism upon reading about the potential for 20 crated spitfires to be put back in the air!! 3 pages of it! We should re-adjust and concentrate on the fact that if it's true and they can be made airworthy it's surely one of the most awesome finds of the past 30 years!

  19. #79
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    Yeah true! I cannot wait for the slaughter to end in Syria and a new government to take power so we can finally find out if the F.22's still exist

  20. #80
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    Guess they'll fill the gaps in our current RAF fighter aircraft inventory....
    Under my gruff exterior lies an even gruffer interior...

    行雲流水

  21. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fluffy View Post
    'The planes were buried in 1945 by the RAF amid fears that they could either be used or destroyed by Japanese forces, but in the intervening years they have not been located'

    Buried by the RAF means more Spits for BBMF then
    Very good Mr B, I'm genuinely laughing very hard! You'll be needing a bigger hangar!

    K
    Say unto oneself, "I must try harder to be kind to all comers to this forum".

  22. #82
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    Are the people involved in the recovery of the spitfires personal friends of Mr Cameron?

  23. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob View Post
    Guess they'll fill the gaps in our current RAF fighter aircraft inventory....
    Should at least double it

  24. #84
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    Before the atom bombs were dropped on Japan? 20 of Britain (and the world's) finest fighters, only recently arrived in theatre, and just dumped? Pull the other one - and where are these aircraft in the serials listings?

    Now if the story involved the replaced and redundant old Mk.VIIIs, that might be more convincing. Or if, as suggested above, the date was wrong.

    It isn't a matter of being cynical. There's one thing having an open mind, there's another to let your brains fall out. As it stands, the story doesn't make anywhere near enough sense.

    But if someone wants to spend their money looking, good luck to them.

  25. #85
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    I guess if it was 20 Hurricanes then no one would give two hoots. As Gordon Beckles said in 1941, 'there is something about the word 'Spitfire''...

  26. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by mantog View Post
    What's wrong with us?! Myself included, our first reactions it seems consist of cynicism, negativity and criticism upon reading about the potential for 20 crated spitfires to be put back in the air!! 3 pages of it! We should re-adjust and concentrate on the fact that if it's true and they can be made airworthy it's surely one of the most awesome finds of the past 30 years!
    ?? elsewhere on this forum there are some 15 pages of cynicism, negativity and critism of the potential or proposal for 1 reproduction mosquito to be built and put back in the air and that seemed fine? (even though Glynn Powell has proven in NZ that its technically viable to do so)

    Here are 3 pages of guarded interest and humourous skepticism of what still seems to be the discovery of an uncertain number of wooden boxes containing an uncertain number of dismantled / crated spitfires of uncertain model, in uncertain condition after apparantly being buried in the tropical soil for @ 60 years and suffering annual monsoons? all based on uncertain oral and eye witness records?

    I dont think anyone is wishing it isnt true, I suspect its just some of us would like to see some visual evidence they do exist, and in what condition, before we crack the champagne and ask when they will be at Legends?

    I can cast my mind back to the intentions to recover RN Corsairs off the coast of Australia dumped off the RN Carriers at the end of the war (including some aircraft still in their crates).

    What came out of the sea proved the dumping stories to be true, but restoration to flying condition, or indeed static display was beyond the condition of the recovered parts, and the 100's said to exist largely remain where they are.

    As you yourself say "IF" it's true and "IF" they can be made airworthy it's surely one of the most awesome finds of the past 30 years!

    I would quite honestly say that "IF" that is the case it will be "incredible"!



    The points of interest seem to be:

    Is there any official records of these late mark RAF spitfires being despatched to Burma? as against what appears to a persistent claim by the proponent that they are instead early mark II's?

    Is there anything, other than oral stories, to support the rumours of burial?

    How conclusive are the recent scans
    - can you see spitfire structure outlines? or just box outlines?

    Has any of the recent scanned sites been excavated? and found a Spitfire?
    (Mark12's comments above suggest no? as he says the evidence so far suggests its worth an exploratory excavation? implying none has yet occured)

    or has one or more been core sampled or otherwise proven to actually contain one spitfire or significant parts of one?, let alone 20 of them?

    The media reports, and comments even by those apparantly "in the know", (including Mark12 whom I do hold in high regard) do not yet seem to really clarify exactly where we are on this road of discovery?

    or have I missed something?

    The proponent seems convinced he has located them in February, but the basis of that conviction seems to be the new scans? and the details of what they show, beyond boxes, seems uncertain or certainly not disclosed publicly?

    At this stage is there any difference to Tighar announcing they are funded and going off to explore the seabed off Nikumaroro armed with, and obsessed with proving a long held and pursued hypothesis, based on an oral testimony of a wreck seen on the beach early post war, and an enhanced digital image from the ROV "that might be" a Lockheed Electra undercarriage leg. (and we seem to be permitted to be skeptical and even cynical about that?)

    Theres nothing wrong with some healthy skepticism, it doesnt mean we dont hope the outcome is successful, just that we find it to be incredible, until we see some tangible evidence to make it more credible.

    I'm not demanding my questions be answered, but equally I'm not accepting demands I accept the proposition or hypothesis un-evidenced or cease my skepticism.

    I'm aware of buried P-40's coming out of dumps in PNG and forming the basis of major reproductions to airworthy outcomes, and that might well be the outcome with buried spitfires in Burma, if it is I will be happy to join the cheer squad.

    It doesnt really matter, they either exist or they dont, some healthy skepticism online here wont stop the excavations going ahead and hopefully disclosing what really exists in those 20' filled in craters. I hope for the proponent his long and expensive efforts are vindicated and rewarded.



    regards

    Mark Pilkington
    Last edited by Mark_pilkington; 14th April 2012 at 15:15.
    "Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"

  27. #87
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    now if they were talking whirlwind's....id' be on it like a kiwi on a sheep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!.
    i do hope this works out..hhhhmmm747 you say how many spits could fit in one of those :diablo:

  28. #88
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    Mark, Hi,
    Well said! A few more healthy, ice-cold, doses of realism like that would have been better at the start of this thread, but one is deafened by the "halleluyah" cries of the hardware aficionados before anything conclusive has been discovered.
    Having a PhD in cynicism I liked enormously the theory that this Spitfire nonsense had been dreamed up by a No 10 PR guru to hide the PM's mode of transport. Brilliant! I would not have been ashamed of that myself!!
    HTH
    Resmoroh
    Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

  29. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mark_pilkington View Post
    ?? elsewhere on this forum there are some 15 pages of cynicism, negativity and critism of the potential or proposal for 1 reproduction mosquito to be built and put back in the air and that seemed fine? (even though Glynn Powell has proven in NZ that its technically viable to do so)

    Here are 3 pages of guarded interest and humourous skepticism of what still seems to be the discovery of an uncertain number of wooden boxes containing an uncertain number of dismantled / crated spitfires of uncertain model, in uncertain condition after apparantly being buried in the tropical soil for @ 60 years and suffering annual monsoons? all based on uncertain oral and eye witness records?

    I dont think anyone is wishing it isnt true, I suspect its just some of us would like to see some visual evidence they do exist, and in what condition, before we crack the champagne and ask when they will be at Legends?

    I can cast my mind back to the intentions to recover RN Corsairs off the coast of Australia dumped off the RN Carriers at the end of the war (including some aircraft still in their crates).

    What came out of the sea proved the dumping stories to be true, but restoration to flying condition, or indeed static display was beyond the condition of the recovered parts, and the 100's said to exist largely remain where they are.

    As you yourself say "IF" it's true and "IF" they can be made airworthy it's surely one of the most awesome finds of the past 30 years!

    I would quite honestly say that "IF" that is the case it will be "incredible"!



    The points of interest seem to be:

    Is there any official records of these late mark RAF spitfires being despatched to Burma? as against what appears to a persistent claim by the proponent that they are instead early mark II's?

    Is there anything, other than oral stories, to support the rumours of burial?

    How conclusive are the recent scans
    - can you see spitfire structure outlines? or just box outlines?

    Has any of the recent scanned sites been excavated? and found a Spitfire?
    (Mark12's comments above suggest no? as he says the evidence so far suggests its worth an exploratory excavation? implying none has yet occured)

    or has one or more been core sampled or otherwise proven to actually contain one spitfire or significant parts of one?, let alone 20 of them?

    The media reports, and comments even by those apparantly "in the know", (including Mark12 whom I do hold in high regard) do not yet seem to really clarify exactly where we are on this road of discovery?

    or have I missed something?

    The proponent seems convinced he has located them in February, but the basis of that conviction seems to be the new scans? and the details of what they show, beyond boxes, seems uncertain or certainly not disclosed publicly?

    At this stage is there any difference to Tighar announcing they are funded and going off to explore the seabed off Nikumaroro armed with, and obsessed with proving a long held and pursued hypothesis, based on an oral testimony of a wreck seen on the beach early post war, and an enhanced digital image from the ROV "that might be" a Lockheed Electra undercarriage leg. (and we seem to be permitted to be skeptical and even cynical about that?)

    Theres nothing wrong with some healthy skepticism, it doesnt mean we dont hope the outcome is successful, just that we find it to be incredible, until we see some tangible evidence to make it more credible.

    I'm not demanding my questions be answered, but equally I'm not accepting demands I accept the proposition or hypothesis un-evidenced or cease my skepticism.

    I'm aware of buried P-40's coming out of dumps in PNG and forming the basis of major reproductions to airworthy outcomes, and that might well be the outcome with buried spitfires in Burma, if it is I will be happy to join the cheer squad.

    It doesnt really matter, they either exist or they dont, some healthy skepticism online here wont stop the excavations going ahead and hopefully disclosing what really exists in those 20' filled in craters. I hope for the proponent his long and expensive efforts are vindicated and rewarded.



    regards

    Mark Pilkington
    So what you're saying is they won't be at Legends...

  30. #90
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    Well would anybody mind me being as happy as 'tornado in a trailer park'
    If its true or not the story is enough to make me happy, simply due to the possibility that somwhere there may be a Spit or a bit of a Spit awaiting discovery.

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