Seems to refer to the group as "IGHAR" rather than "TIGHAR".
Are they one and the same?
Never thought all these would share the same thread...
If we had no rules where would we be? France! If we had too many rules where would we be? Germany!
Seems to refer to the group as "IGHAR" rather than "TIGHAR".
Are they one and the same?
Surely it isn’t that easy to get $500,000 out of the US government!?
Ah, no.....Hillary Clinton has given her support for a 'new' $500,000 bid!
(Nobody has had those turtle bones tested then?)
I guess it's about time for another pacific holiday!
Interested in what I'm doing? Please visit http://gmsenterprises.blogspot.com/
I heard Amelia's name mentioned on the radio just a few minutes ago and may have mumbled something to myself about "I'll bet ------ is involved in this!" I knew it couldn't be anyone else. Here we go again.
My reaction is the same as above in Post 5. The chances of them ever finding anything are less than minute. Even if they did locate anything, most of it would have corroded or rotted-away.
AE was obviously lost in the overwhelming vastness of the Pacific. She took a very high-risk gamble and lost. There is NO mystery. The whole charade of searching for her is farcical, and a waste of funds which might go towards getting a real-life historic a/c back into the air. A bit of a no-brainer really....!
I heard she was alive and well living in Hemel Hempstead with Elvis.
Bit like the NEW Tv programme about to hit the airwaves about what really happened to the Titanic....... Bet ya a fiver it sinks....
That is a brilliant find..hours of fun!.
If we had no rules where would we be? France! If we had too many rules where would we be? Germany!
The "new clue" is apparantly a blurry picture that "if you squint" looks like the undercarriage leg and wheel of a Lockheed sticking out of the water near Nikumaroro!
I have in the past read much of the Tigar website and seen claims dating from 1999 of a blurry object shown in 1938 photos next to the wreck of the "SS Norwich City" as being possible aircraft undercarriage, I wont be surprised to see this being that claim recycled.A new clue in one of the 20th century's most enduring mysteries could uncover the fate of American aviator Amelia Earhart, who went missing without a trace over the South Pacific 75 years ago, investigators say.
Enhanced analysis of a photograph taken just months after Earhart's Lockheed Electra plane vanished shows what experts think may be the landing gear of the aircraft protruding from the waters off the remote island of Nikumaroro, in what is now the Pacific nation of Kiribati, they said.
Armed with that analysis by the State Department, historians, scientists and salvagers from The International Group for Historic Aircraft Recovery, are returning to the island in July in the hope of finding the wreckage of Earhart's plane and perhaps even the remains of the pilot and her navigator Fred Noonan.
Ric Gillespie, executive director of the group, acknowledged that the evidence was "circumstantial" but "strong" but stopped short of predicting success. The new search is scheduled to last for 10 days in July and will use state-of-the-art underwater robotic submarines and mapping equipment.
"The most important thing is not whether we find the ultimate answer or what we find, it is the way we look," he said. "We see this opportunity to explore ... the last great American mystery of the 20th century as a vehicle for demonstrating how to go about figuring out what is true."
Earhart and Noonan disappeared July 2, 1937, while flying from New Guinea to Howland Island as part of her attempt to become the first female pilot to circumnavigate the globe.
Extensive searches at the time uncovered nothing and many historians are convinced they crashed into the ocean. In addition, conspiracy theories, including claims that they were US government agents captured by the Japanese before the Second World War, still abound despite having been largely debunked.
Gillespie's group believes Earhart and Noonan may have managed to land on a reef abutting the atoll, then known as Gardner Island, and survived for a short time. They surmise that the plane was washed off the reef by high tides shortly after the landing and that the wreckage may be found in the deep waters nearby.
Their previous visits to the island have recovered artifacts that could have belonged to Earhart and Noonan and suggest they might have lived for days or weeks. Now, they have the new analysis of the October 1937 photo of the shoreline of the island. Experts say a blurry object sticking out of the water in the lower left corner of the black-and-white photo is consistent with a strut and wheel of a Lockheed Electra landing gear.
Renowned oceanographer Robert Ballard, who discovered the wreckage of the Titanic and the Bismarck and is advising the Earhart expedition, said the new analysis of the photograph could be the equivalent of a "smoking gun" as it narrows the search area from tens of thousands of square miles to a manageable size.Ballard confessed to having been previously intimidated by the challenge of finding clues to Earhart's whereabouts.
"If you ever want a case of finding a needle in a haystack, this is at the top of the list," he at a State Department event where Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton and Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood gave their support and encouragement to the privately financed project.
Clinton hailed Earhart as an inspiration to Americans in difficult times as the nation struggled to emerge from the Great Depression of the 1930s and said her legacy could be a model for the country now.
"Amelia Earhart may have been a unlikely heroine for a nation down on its luck, but she embodies the spirit of an America coming of age and increasingly confident, ready to lead in a quite uncertain and dangerous world," she said. "She gave people hope and she inspired them to dream bigger and bolder."
"Today, we meet at a time when the challenges are not so dire despite what you might hear on cable television or talk radio. But these are still difficult days for many Americans," Clinton said. "After a long decade of war, terrorism and recession, there are some who are asking whether we still have what it takes to lead, and like that earlier generation we too could use some of Amelia's spirit."
"We can be as optimistic and even audacious as Amelia Earhart," she said. "We can be defined not by the limits that hold us down but by the opportunities that are ahead."
I suspect its going to turn out to be a re-work of this series of blurry photos!
The suggestion of the 'dash and dot" being aircraft remains comes from the interview of the "Carpenters daughter"
TK: Where were the parts of the airplane?
ES: Not far from where the ship was. Not toward the village but away from it. The struts were there. [holds up hands in circle, apparently indicating that the struts were round in cross-section, about 20 cm. in diameter] It was around that area were the bones were found. Could be bones from the ship or the airplane. During the westerlies, heavy swells took the rest of the bones away. There were not many that we found. Maybe 10 different people whose bones were found along that area. There were some with leather bottles and a pipe. I used to accompany my father to fish. Some people would not go to that area to fish because they were frightened. You would come up on the reef, then the beach comes up where the island shrubs start to grow. [with gestures and words, she and Foua indicated the storm surge line and first Scaevola line in from the beach] That is where the bones were found.
TK: What kind of things did your father make?
ES: My father made rings and combs, and things with inlaid wood. He made rings out of golden coins. He built things of wood. The box he made for the bones was not as big as a usual coffin size. I don’t know what timber was used. [To demonstrate the box size, Tom used his hands to get an approximate measurement of 12–15 inches deep and 24 inches in length.] I didn’t see the actual bones. I don’t know how many bones, but it must not have been many or the box would have been bigger. Many planks were used. Boards were nailed, stained and varnished. My father often worked with kanawa wood. [She walked clear around the island three times with her father, a great fisherman. This came out in the context of discussing how important her father was in the community, both as carpenter and a fisherman, and how close she was to him. She said she was raised like a man, because she was the oldest in her sibling set.]
TK: Did you see the plane fall?
ES: No, it was already there when I came. I came in 1938–1939, when I was 11 years old. I left in December 1941. The steel of the plane was there sometime before we got there. [asked specifically about aluminum, she says no] Fishermen found the bones. They were frightened and they brought the story of them to the Onotoa man.
TK: Was that Koata?
ES: [she smiles broadly as in recognition] Yes.
TK: What did Koata do?
ES: He sent people to bring the bones. People were frightened. Only people working for the government received the bones. My father had to look at the bones. Mr. Gallagher asked my father to make the box.
TK: What other kinds of things did your father make?
ES: My father had ceased making rings at that time [not done in the Phoenix Islands]. He was working for the government. He constructed houses, maintained the European houses, the hospital and he went fishing. He helped with the ministry. He took the lead in the systematic planting of the coconut trees. He brought the coconut seedlings from my uncle from Manra, in 1939.
TK: When did you get to Nikumaroro?
ES: We had not been on Beru Island a year when we were sent to Nikumaroro. Perhaps 1938-39. In less than 3 years, I left Nikumaroro.
TK: What caused your family to move to Nikumaroro?
ES: Instructions from the government to build houses and plant coconuts. Uncle Kemo went to Manra to build the hospital building and water tank.
TK: How old were you when your father built the box?
ES: 14 years old, not yet 15. I had been around the island three times with my father. I followed him and sometimes we would turn over turtles.
TK: Where were the turtles mostly?
ES: On the weather side. The government used to send people across the lagoon to pick up the turtles. [In an unrelated offering at this time, Emily commented that Niku was a pleasant place to live because of knowing Mr. Gallagher and Jack “Uncle Kemo” Pedro, who was also a singer and composer. Jack had three sons in the Gilbertese and Marshall Islands, one son now holding a senior position in the government of the Marshall Islands.]
TK: When your father was building the box was it special?
ES: It was special, but there was no real rush to complete the job quickly. I don’t know when the bones were removed from the island.
TK: Please clarify about the bones. Were the 10 skeletons/bodies separate from the bones that were put in the box?
ES: The bones of the 10 people were toward the shoreline, but these bones [the bones in the box her father made] were found on the reef near the remaining parts of the plane. People decided these bones were from the people from the plane. When I used to go to the place, the bones of the 10 people were still there. People who found the bones near the plane were frightened to touch them. They told Teng Koata of the bones and he told Gallagher. Koata had them collect the bones for Gallagher. Until I left the island, I hadn’t heard anything about what had happened to those bones. The government put restrictions that children were not to frequent that area.
TK: Did people use parts of the airplane?
ES: I don’t know for sure. When we got there only the steel frames were left, only the long pieces were there. We were frightened to go close to the plane. Where the shipwreck was – the remainder of the plane was not very far from there. The waves were washing it in low tide. The 10 people had complete skeletons. Looking at those people, they could be tall people. They were very long. People were afraid of all the bones in both places.
I also wouldnt be surprised to one day see Tigar register itself as a religion given the ability to fabricate biblical type stories on nothing than blind faith.
But full marks for the fundraising and marketing/media skills and abilities!
"Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"
As far as i know its never been conclusively proven or disproven either way, as apparently you would need to find the hull construction numbers on the ships themselves, Olympic is 400, Titanic 401, Titanic's wreck is apparently fitted with Olympic's propellors going by this theory.
Proper planning and preparation prevents p*** poor performance
Olympic had already made high-speed trips to & from New York without any passengers noticing a &*&^%% thing well before Titanic was completed. In case you forgot, these ships had "3rd class" (steerage) passenger accommodations that were in the bow.
There were definite differences in internal layout of major internal public spaces (in terms of locations of bulkheads, etc) that were well-photographed during construction and during Olympic's first trips... and well after... including by passengers.
Olympic never spent enough time out-of-service during the time Titanic was near completion for the structural modifications that would be needed to hide these differences.
Of course, the nutcases who support this theory claim that all those photos were faked, the entire passenger complement bribed, shipyard workers bribed or threatened into silence, etc... as this is the only way that that kind of problem could have been concealed.
From an AP article on today's news... Unedited....
"The expedition will coincide with the 75th anniversary of Earhart's departure on the ill-fated attempt to become the first woman to fly around the world. Previous visits to the island by the group have recovered artifacts that could have belonged to Earhart and Noonan and suggest they might have lived for days or weeks after landing on a reef.
State Department officials say Clinton will use Tuesday's event to lend her high profile to the search while also lauding Earhart's legacy as a pioneer for women and a model of American courage. She will also note the Obama administration's keen interest in the Pacific.
The event will underscore America's spirit of adventure and courage, as embodied by Amelia Earhart, and our commitment to seizing new opportunities for cooperation with Pacific neighbors founded on the United States' long history of engagement in the Asia-Pacific region," the department said in a statement."
In other words, Clinton doesn't really care about Earhart or finding anything, it's a glorified photo opportunity to make points on the "Women's History" issue and say something nice about out allies in the Pacific.
It's a chance for her to get into the media on a non-controversial issue.
No doubt TIGHAR will use it as a ringing endorsement of them and their endless searches.
There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.
As a wee matter of interest, who did become the first women to fly around the world after Earhart failed to?
I think it's a pointless waste of time and money. Even if they find anything, what's the point? The pair will still be dead and the plane a wreck.
"The most important thing is not whether we find the ultimate answer or what we find, it is the way we look,"
I couldn't agree more; bermuda shorts, hawaiian shirts, ray bans etc that's what I'd be wearing in the south Pacific, and all at the govt's expense....
" A man hears what he wants to hear, and disregards the rest"
http://www.flightmemory.com/ I have been round the world 10.8 times!
...in that case, bagsie her mag-switches then...
It sounds a bit too close to ‘I didn’t see the UFO / ghost / alien when I took the photograph but...’Now, they have the new analysis of the October 1937 photo of the shoreline of the island. Experts say a blurry object sticking out of the water in the lower left corner of the black-and-white photo is consistent with a strut and wheel of a Lockheed Electra landing gear.
Of course Tigar always discount the possibility that the SS Norwich City wreck and its cargo could be the source for human bones, (ten people died in the wreck), or womens shoes/makeup compacts (cargo?) Navigators sextant box (personal item of ships navigator?) found by Tigars expedition, or for any other stray debris along the coast seen by locals and reported in testimony/witness statements.
It turns out there are yet other photos of material lying close to the wreck of the SS Norwich City but apparantly these cant simply be explained as debris from the ship breaking up? (which was the apparant expert conclusion from analysis of the "dot and dash" photos).
The photograph that may show the plane was taken in October 1937 by Eric Bevington, then a Cadet Officer of the British Gilbert & Ellice Islands Colony. The Earhart/Noonan flight had vanished three months earlier on July 2nd. Bevington was part of a small expedition sent to investigate the islands of the Phoenix Group for possible settlement. He took a number of personal photographs, one of which appears to have taken from a small boat just off the west end of Nikumaroro, then known as Gardner Island. The dominant object in the photo is the wreck of the British freighter SS Norwich City which ran aground in a storm and burned on the night of November 29, 1929. Near the extreme left side of the frame something appears to be sticking up out of the water near the reef edge.
Tigar have named it "Nessie" but I dont think its the Loch Ness Monster holidaying in the South Pacific, its more likely the owner of the small boat yelling to Bevington "come back with my tinnie" or "Number 8 its time to come in".
Or perhaps its just a Shag standing on a rock?
But here is Tigar's impressive hypothosis to generate sponsorship and funding, to spend many more years visiting Nikumaroro and its reef bottom.
The image has apparantly already led to ROV investigations of the nearby seabed, including some underwater photos from an ROV that conclusively shows a yellow texta outline of an undercarriage leg existing on the reef floor smiles
With this level of marketing and spin doctoring "evidence" its then easy to see how Clinton and even Ballard can be enlisted to support calls for further funding and sea bottom searching.
I wonder if instead its simply the very large pincher from a Crab?, perhaps its the Turtle Fin that the "finger" came from?
Its all very similar to Colin Powell's presentations to the UN of US Intelligence evidence of Iraqs Weapons of Mass Destruction!
Although I'm not suggesting Tigar intentionally fabricate "evidence" I do consider they are often too early to make front page claims of outcomes that are later quietly corrected in fine print on the back page, ie the Turtle Bone "finger"
In that way they do in someways remind me of the 2004 Sonar Scans of the Sunderland in the Cumbrian Lakes and other work undertaken by DiveTheWorld that were so amusing on threads here years ago and on the front pages of UK papers?, but were soon shown to be the work of a Walter Mitty.
Last edited by Mark_pilkington; 22nd March 2012 at 21:25.
"Never has a Country so Big!, owed so Much!, to those who Flew!"
I have it on unimpeachable authority that the 1969 moon landing never took place and it was all faked on a back-lot in Hollywood.
Moustachioed faggot by appointment to the fantasists
"What you must remember" Flip said "is that nine-tenths of Cattermole's charm lies beneath the surface." Many agreed.
Only very large objects retain any semblance of original shape when left in tropical underwater shallowish areas,healthy coral areas cover items fairly quickly . I have searched for cannon on reefs without a sighting and the most usual man made object located are large iron anchors. To make a blurry image into an undercarriage leg is stretching reality to far.
I went to that site and read the discussion, all 73 pages so far, on that video shot of the sea floor. Whilst I am not condemning the participants' enthusiasm, I have never seen so much "creative" thinking about what some amorphous chunks of coral debris might "really" be. Bearing in mind that there isn't even any idea of what size these chunks are, there being no scale to compare with whatsoever, the results are, how can I say, imaginative at best - one participant freely admits having absolutely no knowledge of aircraft or their components at all, and in fact hates flying full stop but seems to have "found" to his own satisfaction many identifiable fragments. I see chunks of coral, he sees bits of radios, fuel lines, hatches, earphones etc.
Having seen, as an archaeologist, my fair share of amorphous blobs in the comparatively dry surrounds of a normal dig site and having something quite accurate to provide an idea of size I really cannot see what searching that video has revealed or can offer. To his credit even the TIGHAR person has told them that their parts identification is somewhat "enthusiastic". As for that u/c leg or whatever it is - lot of ifs, buts and wishful thinking if you ask me.
It would be very interesting if all this did turn up some firm idea of Earhart's fate but so far all we still have that is certain is the last radio message.
I spent an interesting few minutes reading the TIGHAR website the other night and thought that some of the ideas regarding the aircraft landing on the coral were extremely far-fetched; the idea that the aircraft made a wheels-down landing on the coral and was able to run-up an engine to provide power for the radio for up to four days after they went missing for example.
Surely it would have been better to dismiss the unconfirmed radio ‘noise’ rather than trying to fit the TIGHAR theory around them!“If any of the nearly two hundred radio distress calls that were heard for at least four nights after the disappearance were genuine – and about half of the reported signals do seem to have been genuine – then the aircraft had to have made a relatively safe wheels-down landing and been able to run an engine to recharge the batteries.” (TIGHAR website)
At least the TIGHAR publicity has encouraged me to examine their evidence myself and try a theory of my own (and I don’t know much more than the fact that Earhart and Noonan are missing presumed dead):
That last radio message from Earhart and Noonan for example received after they had been flying for over twenty hours (with three to four hours flying time remaining) and when unable to see, or contact by radio, their destination, Howland Island; Earhart said she was flying a ‘157°/337° line’. TIGHAR seem to have taken that to indicate that Earhart and Noonan were flying to Gardner Island (Nikumaroro) in the hope of finding land but to me that doesn’t make any sense; I’m not a pilot, or used to navigating over the sea, and I have little knowledge of radio procedure but why if that was the case wouldn’t the radio message be ‘course 157°’ or ‘steering 157°’ or ‘heading for Gardner’?
Also, by my reckoning, this is a most illogical thing to do; Earhart and Noonan didn’t know where they were (although they probably thought they were somewhere near Howland Island) and heading 157° is only going to take them to (tiny, uninhabited) Gardner Island (for a certain crash-landing) if they were actually over (airport and radio-equipped) Howland Island! And it is how far to Gardner Island; isn’t it at the limit of their remaining range?
No, if they can’t see Howland they’ve either flown over it (unlikely?), haven’t reached it yet, or missed it to one side or the other so I think they’d have used their remaining endurance searching for Howland and trying to raise Howland on the radio. If they are judging distance by dead-reckoning they could be many miles out after twenty hours; they could also have drifted off course. The radio message of ‘flying a 157°/337° line’ says to me Earhart and Noonan thought they were good for distance but had passed to one side of Howland Island; but which side? They’d guess one side and fly that way for a while to check but then turn-back and check the other side (but without flying over ocean they’d already covered).
I’d have flown some sort of ‘box search’; maybe half-hour legs 157° and then 67° (their original course?) followed by hour legs 337° then 247° and finally back onto 157° for an hour (or until the fuel was gone). It would all depend on the visibility and how much distance they’d be covering at their most economical speed but they would surely know how best to conduct such a search.
What I wouldn’t do is head for a tiny, uninhabited island with no airfield and no radio, that was an unknown distance (but hundreds of miles) away, on a compass heading from an unknown starting point, with unknown weather and possibly some fault with my compass that I hadn’t detected! Plus this would be away from where any search party would be looking, especially if I’d been unsure that they knew that is what I was going to do!
I’ve deliberately avoided getting information from anywhere other than the most basic stuff from the TIGHAR website for this theory so I’m sure people will be able to pick holes in it but I didn’t want to be influenced by any other information or any other theory.
So how did I do?
What Earhart meant by "flying a 157/337 line" is that a standard navigator's technique when lost is to in effect "cap the tee" of the course you were initially following--i.e. fly at right angles to it in one direction, meaning that if you've been flying due east you then fly due north, or south--and see if you can find anything that will help you determine your position. If you can't find anything while heading north, say, for a reasonable distance, you reverse course and try the same thing going south (assuming you have enough fuel).
Let's take as an example that I'm flying due east from Ohio bound for New York City. If after X hours and XX minutes I calculate that I have flown just far enough to be overhead New York City but there's nothing in sight because I'm actually over rural country near Poughkeepsie, I choose to fly straight north OR straight south. If I choose north, I soon hit Albany. If I choose south, I soon hit New York City. So Earhart wasn't flying 157 "to Gardner Island," she was flying 157 to see if she'd find anything landable, ditchable, recognizeable.
Whatever the reason, Earhart and Noonan decided to try flying a southeastbound course first, and Tighar (of which I'm a member, for better or worse) believes that they happened to see Gardner Island while flying that course.
Had they chosen to fly northwest (337), they wouldn't have seen a thing until they hit Russia, which of course was far beyond their remaining range in any case.
As for the first woman to fly around the world, according to Google, it was some woman in 1964 called Geraldine Mock, whose husband suggested when she complained of feeling bored that she fly around the world, which she did.
I can't say I believe it either. I suspect that no-one has done, but Amelia Earhart got closest.
Any forum member is welcome to prove me wrong, of course.
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