Dassault, BAE To Work On Unmanned Fighter Jet Project

[glitter]

http://www.4-traders.com/DASSAULT-AV...port-14026470/

PARIS -(Dow Jones)- French maker of business and fighter jets Dassault Aviation SA (>> DASSAULT AVIATION) and U.K. aerospace company BAE Systems PLC (>> BAE Systems plc) will start working on a joint prototype of an unmanned fighter jet to be ready in 2020, French newspaper Les Echos reported Thursday, citing sources close to the situation.

French President Nicolas Sarkozy and U.K. Prime Minister David Cameron will announce the project Friday after an official meeting, the newspaper said.

The project will have an investment of a few tens of millions of euros, according to the report. The new stealth jet would eventually replace both the Rafale and Eurofighter, Les Echos said.

Officials at Dassault or Sarkozy's office weren't immediately available to comment.

[swerve]

The original story is here.

It's longer, & more informative. I suspect it's not true, though. May be confused with Neuron/Taranis.

[Sanem]

the articles suggest it will be a "fighter jet" and replace the Rafale and Typhoon. I wonder if this something different from the ground attack UCAV we've been seeing (nEuron and Taranis), or if that UCAV will fulfil all fighter roles, including air-to-air and such

what does bother me is that this is a UK/France project, what about Spain, Italy and Germany, who'll also need to replace their Typhoons and Tornadoes?

[Geoff_B]

the articles suggest it will be a "fighter jet" and replace the Rafale and Typhoon. I wonder if this something different from the ground attack UCAV we've been seeing (nEuron and Taranis), or if that UCAV will fulfil all fighter roles, including air-to-air and such

what does bother me is that this is a UK/France project, what about Spain, Italy and Germany, who'll also need to replace their Typhoons and Tornadoes?

Because France & UK have signed a defence cooperation treaty and are in the early stages of working closer together. German defence intrests have benn reduced since the cold war as it no longer has the Soviet bloc on/next to its turf and doesn't have overseas interests to protect. Spain & Italy are broke at present. So defence cooperation is actually an area where Anglo/Franco relations are quite good and don't include the rest of European Union.

I wonder if they will push this aspect if the two leaders are meeting together to avoid the spat that sprung up over the Eurozone crisis.

As for the UCAV, we'll have to wait and see what scope they set for it, be it recon, strike or Air Combat. I would suspect anything air combat wise would be either to complement the eurocanards or include a manned/unmanned option if seen as an eventual replacement. The interesting bit will be if they go with the carrier capability as part of the requirement

[Nopia]

At least the UK will have a proper stealth fighter if they do this, unlike that god-awful F-35 contraption.

[swerve]

the articles

There's only one article. The second one is just a partial repetition of it. In these cases, only the original is worth paying attention to.

suggest it will be a "fighter jet" and replace the Rafale and Typhoon.

Non-specialist journalists often get such things wrong. They hear "stealthy jet" & make assumptions, & then write an article which does not indicate what is the information they based the article on, & what is their own assumptions or speculations.

I've squashed a few stories being peddled here by tracking back through the trail of references in articles until I found the original press release or whatever. When a mistake is introduced by someone copying an article, that mistake can proliferate until the mistaken reports greatly outnumber the correct ones.

[TooCool_12f]

the articles suggest it will be a "fighter jet" and replace the Rafale and Typhoon. I wonder if this something different from the ground attack UCAV we've been seeing (nEuron and Taranis), or if that UCAV will fulfil all fighter roles, including air-to-air and such

what does bother me is that this is a UK/France project, what about Spain, Italy and Germany, who'll also need to replace their Typhoons and Tornadoes?

a fighter to replace the typhoon and the rafale, having a prototype flyinh in 2020... seems a bit early, unless they plan a 15 years flight test...

as far as Germany, Spain and Italy are concerned, what does that have to do with this news? UK and France can decide to develop a fighter on their own. other countries' needs are other countries problem.

Besides, when you look at the mess the Typhoon development has become (with always one partner or another that doesn't want this, pay for that, etc...), you can reach only one conclusion: no partner is much better than too many partners...

[ppp]

Britain and France are cooperating on a UAV for the French air force, I wouldn't call it a fighter jet though Maybe this is just something to keep senior air force officers employed drawing pretty pictures and dreaming about specifications they'll never get?

As for Taranis and Neuron, they aren't likely to be related to this, else they would have mentioned Sweden, Greece etc which they have not. A future European fighter or similar is going to face some really big issues with workshare that is for sure.

[mrmalaya]

the articles suggest it will be a "fighter jet" and replace the Rafale and Typhoon. I wonder if this something different from the ground attack UCAV we've been seeing (nEuron and Taranis), or if that UCAV will fulfil all fighter roles, including air-to-air and such

what does bother me is that this is a UK/France project, what about Spain, Italy and Germany, who'll also need to replace their Typhoons and Tornadoes?

I have raised this point a while back. In essence, France and the UK have appeared far more motivated to look to the future of their fast jet manufacture than Spain, Germany or Italy...

It isn't as simple as that, but we do know that the UK views Taranis and its successor as vital to the national interest. The French already see Rafale as vital to the national interest, and I would suggest that only a new design will be competitive in the 2020-2030 timeframe....

And does it make sense to have a ground attack UCAV and a A2A UCAV with seperate designs?.... Afterall the answer may be optionally manned or controlled from a mother ship....

[Mildave]

At least the UK will have a proper stealth fighter if they do this, unlike that god-awful F-35 contraption.

Let's hope my friend let's hope...

[J-20 Hotdog]

what about Spain, Italy and Germany

Broke, Broke, Pacifist and will only do peace keeping missions, thus the death of German Aerospace but the thriving of German armor

[Speedy]

At least the UK will have a proper stealth fighter if they do this, unlike that god-awful F-35 contraption.

F35 just proves that pigs CAN fly ! :diablo:

[Eremit]

As for Taranis and Neuron, they aren't likely to be related to this, else they would have mentioned Sweden, Greece etc which they have not. A future European fighter or similar is going to face some really big issues with workshare that is for sure.

I agree. European countries buy rather us products than an european product with no workshare.

[Mildave]

Sweden, Greece, Switzerland etc. are only acting as subcontractors and suppliers on the Neuron project. Dassault can decide to further develop that platform with BAE if it so wishes. The other are free to decide if they are willing to try and get work share even if their govt buy US.

[toan]

a fighter to replace the typhoon and the rafale, having a prototype flyinh in 2020... seems a bit early, unless they plan a 15 years flight test...

Not a bit early, but too late.

Year of entering service for Mirage 2000C and Tornado ADV: 1984~1985.

Year of maiden flight for Rafale A and EAP: 1986.

Year of maiden flight for Rafale C01: 1991.

Year of maiden flight for Eurofighter DA1: 1994.


15 years or even longer flight test before formally entering service....this has already come truth for Typhoon and Rafale. And I see no reason why the successor for Typhoon and Rafale, which shall be more expensive and complicate than Typhoon and Rafale, can be an exception, especially if you plan to use AI to totally replace the fighter pilot's brain and eyes for the whole fighter's job.......

[Eremit]

Sweden, Greece, Switzerland etc. are only acting as subcontractors and suppliers on the Neuron project.

Not really.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dassault_nEUROn

Dassault can decide to further develop that platform with BAE if it so wishes. The other are free to decide if they are willing to try and get work share even if their govt buy US.

I guess if Dassault use that platform as a base for further developments regardless of partnership, than Dassault will lose acceptance for further partnership.

[mrmalaya]

toan! we agree! we agree!

Its definitely not too early to kick off a new successor project.

The BBC is reporting a deal between the UK/France over civil nuclear power and mentions in the same article that there is an announcement about a UAV planned....:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17069455

Now I know that ppp is going to say this is all about Telemos, but we shall see....

[Rii]

Not sure what France would have to gain from cooperation with the UK when it has far more reliable and valuable partners in the offing in India, Brazil, etc.

Europe is a dead end and France has the best ejection seat on the continent. No surprises that the UK is trying to glom on to them and Italy to that other rising star, Turkey.

[mrmalaya]

do you genuinely think that France will get a better product (on time) by working with India or Brazil?

I mean really?

Or is it just nice to think of the UK (Britain) on the wane?

[Rii]

do you genuinely think that France will get a better product (on time) by working with India or Brazil?

Yup. One ringmaster, not two.

Or is it just nice to think of the UK (Britain) on the wane?

The whole of Europe is on the wane. I'm just done with the multilateralism bull****. The Spanish and Italians have no money, the Germans don't care for defence and the Brits are Americans. The future for France lies outside Europe, continuing to build upon the long tradition of independence. The reintegration into NATO was a colossal mistake.

As for the UK's future ... just get it over with and join the US of A. After the Scots leave, obviously.

[Nopia]

toan! we agree! we agree!

Its definitely not too early to kick off a new successor project.

The BBC is reporting a deal between the UK/France over civil nuclear power and mentions in the same article that there is an announcement about a UAV planned....:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-17069455

Now I know that ppp is going to say this is all about Telemos, but we shall see....

Yeah the guy on the news said it'd be a drone prototype ready for 2020. Such a shame yas ou can already pretty much guarantee it'll be an awful pile of s**t if BAE are in on it, just like as the rest of their drones have been. Don't even mention being ready on time either. One could say this is just another jobs program as always there's bound to be a better US system waiting on the shelf at half the cost.

Quick edit, seems they're sinking £45bn into this! Ouch.

[nocutstoRAF]

As for the UK's future ... just get it over with and join the US of A. After the Scots leave, obviously.

I cannot speak for anyone else but the day that England applies to become new state of the USA is the day I move to any Northern European country that will have me... I cannot think of anything worse than giving up the UK's cultural identity (including the NHS) to become some sort of back water poor cousin to New Jersey.

As for a new UAV I suspect beyond some proof of concept work which may get announced that any joint UAV is going to be Telemos, with some solid announcements today on work share and who gets to do what.

[BME330]

Broke, Broke, Pacifist and will only do peace keeping missions, thus the death of German Aerospace but the thriving of German armor

We are the first broke country that is paying +30 € million for each NH-90 TTH. A damn good deal. Sure.

[J-20 Hotdog]

We are the first broke country that is paying +30 € million for each NH-90 TTH. A damn good deal. Sure.

BME, over the years.. i've noticed that you seem to just not like European weapons and prefer American alternatives

but to be fair, I hear nothing but problems and controversey over NH-90.. why are militaries picking it again? its a beautiful helicopter.. in fact best one of its size range.. but i may favor an updated Mi-17 to cut costs and still have something that can get the job done unless its ASW stuff.

[Bager1968]

At least the UK will have a proper stealth fighter if they do this, unlike that god-awful F-35 contraption.

Let's hope my friend let's hope...

Not at the price cited in the article!

The project will have an investment of a few tens of millions of euros, according to the report. The new stealth jet would eventually replace both the Rafale and Eurofighter, Les Echos said.

For the cost of one Rafale or Typhoon they are going to develop a replacement?

Really?

[kev 99]

According to channel 4 last night it was unmaned fighters, according to the bbc this morning it's Surveillance aircraft.

[Amiga500]

Not sure what France would have to gain from cooperation with the UK when it has far more reliable and valuable partners in the offing in India, Brazil, etc.

Access to a pool of far more skilled/experienced engineers.


Simple really.

[Amiga500]

According to channel 4 last night it was unmaned fighters, according to the bbc this morning it's Surveillance aircraft.

I'd be shocked if it wasn't intended to be capable of both to be honest.

[Nopia]

Access to a pool of far more skilled/experienced engineers.


Simple really.

Haha you are kidding, you must be. The Nimrod fiasco, a whole stack of worthless BAES UAV's and huge problems building the Astute submarines (that needed American help in the end) would all point to a lack of decent engineers in the UK.

[swerve]

Not at the price cited in the article!

"The project will have an investment of a few tens of millions of euros, according to the report."
For the cost of one Rafale or Typhoon they are going to develop a replacement?

Really?

As always, you should read the original article. The cited one omits the word 'initial' from "an initial investment of a few tens of millions of euros".

Note the BBC article already cited. It's not a fighter, but as I thought (see my first post) a UAV. Or rather, if BAe is right (& they should know) two projects, both Telemos (which could be Son of Mantis) and Son of Taranis/Neuron.

BAE Systems said it expected that tomorrow's summit, originally scheduled for December last year, would pave the way for a UAV (unmanned aerial vehicle) design and development programme, and an unmanned combat air system demonstrator programme.