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Thread: MMRCA - has Rafale been illegally subsidised?

  1. #631
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    even the Zhuk-M equiped MIG-29M from late 1990s have 130km range. now with more power supply and Zhuk-M1 and soonM2 . it is well beyond those numbers in MIG-29K.

    that was in 2009. Show me Rafale AESA radar range in 2009?
    The RBE2 PESA reportedly offers a tracking range of around 100 km against a 3 sqm target. Rafale pilots report that the detection range of the RBE2 matches that of the RDY radar fitted to the Mirage 2000-5F. The RDY reportedly offers a detection range of 130-140 km against a 5 sqm target. Considering the difference in target RCS and range performance in search and track, the original RBE2 already matched the performance of the Zhuk-MAE and Zhuk-M. What you ignore is that the Zhuk-MAE demonstrator retaining the Zhuk-M backend, had a reduced antenna diameter of just 600 mm vs 680 mm of the slotted array. Aperture is important for range performance as well and likely the reason why this earlier Zhuk-A prototype didn't fared to well. A "detection range of 148 km against aerial target" tells you nothing about the target's relative RCS and is subsequently meaningless. The proposed production version of the Zhuk-A/AE features an increased antenna diameter of 700 mm with ~60% more TRMs and if more powr could be squeezed out of the generators and more powerful/efficient modules would be fitted to the production model of the Zhuk-A the range might be increased considerably. Phasotron previously stated detection ranges up to 200 km for the Zhuk-A, but that's years ago and before the radar actually existed. The RBE2AA AESA radar reportedly offers a 40-50% increase in range performance over the RBE2 PESA which would translate into a detection range of at least 180 km against a 5 sqm target, if not more. To cut it short the Zhuk prototype trialed by the Indians may well have failed in the tests, but a fully developed production variant shouldn't have any issues to meet and exceed this range requirement. RBE2AA certainly passed the tests and was superior to the Zhuk demonstrator at that time. This might change in terms of raw range performance if the Zhuk-A/AE production variant delivers what it promises.

  2. #632
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scorpion82 View Post
    The RBE2 PESA reportedly offers a tracking range of around 100 km against a 3 sqm target. Rafale pilots report that the detection range of the RBE2 matches that of the RDY radar fitted to the Mirage 2000-5F. The RDY reportedly offers a detection range of 130-140 km against a 5 sqm target. Considering the difference in target RCS and range performance in search and track, the original RBE2 already matched the performance of the Zhuk-MAE and Zhuk-M. What you ignore is that the Zhuk-MAE demonstrator retaining the Zhuk-M backend, had a reduced antenna diameter of just 600 mm vs 680 mm of the slotted array. Aperture is important for range performance as well and likely the reason why this earlier Zhuk-A prototype didn't fared to well. A "detection range of 148 km against aerial target" tells you nothing about the target's relative RCS and is subsequently meaningless. The proposed production version of the Zhuk-A/AE features an increased antenna diameter of 700 mm with ~60% more TRMs and if more powr could be squeezed out of the generators and more powerful/efficient modules would be fitted to the production model of the Zhuk-A the range might be increased considerably. Phasotron previously stated detection ranges up to 200 km for the Zhuk-A, but that's years ago and before the radar actually existed. The RBE2AA AESA radar reportedly offers a 40-50% increase in range performance over the RBE2 PESA which would translate into a detection range of at least 180 km against a 5 sqm target, if not more. To cut it short the Zhuk prototype trialed by the Indians may well have failed in the tests, but a fully developed production variant shouldn't have any issues to meet and exceed this range requirement. RBE2AA certainly passed the tests and was superior to the Zhuk demonstrator at that time. This might change in terms of raw range performance if the Zhuk-A/AE production variant delivers what it promises.
    ZHUK-ME uses 624mm. not much different than ZHUK-AE demo in 2009. Zhuk-ME has more range than ZHUK-M with 680mm from 1990s.
    As i said range is the least of concern as far as Russian radar is concerned.
    was there AESA equiped Rafale tested in 2009? and how about EF. as UAE has shown that Rafale is not even equal to F-16E radar.

  3. #633
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    The Phazatron statement regarding range for the smaller, old array was actually that they tracked numerous targets @ 148 kilometers.

    Just going off that I would imagine Zhuk-AE has some good figures by now.
    RCS of target is unknown, either 5m2 or 3m2 likely.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  4. #634
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    The Phazatron statement regarding range for the smaller, old array was actually that they tracked numerous targets @ 148 kilometers.

    Just going off that I would imagine Zhuk-AE has some good figures by now.
    RCS of target is unknown, either 5m2 or 3m2 likely.
    Think it is 3m^2 target @ 250km (From one of the Aero India shows). Initially it was 130km then 200km with increased T/R modules and then 250km with the original number of modules but improved processing capabilities.

  5. #635
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    The RBE2 PESA reportedly offers a tracking range of around 100 km against a 3 sqm target.

    [...]

    The RBE2AA AESA radar reportedly offers a 40-50% increase in range performance over the RBE2 PESA which would translate into a detection range of at least 180 km against a 5 sqm target, if not more.
    Detection != Tracking.

    Tracking range is usually half the detection range.

  6. #636
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    Dec 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by JSR View Post
    They cannot put similar loads. Rafale is only integrated with 110kg MICA. so it load distribution will be lighter. They dont even have same internal fuel capacities.
    MIG-35/F-18 has 175-190kg AAMs.

    heavier aircraft generally takes more runways than lighter. F-18 empty weight and internal fuel capacities are 50% higher than Rafale but thrust is 40%. so the other factors dont matter. The closest competitor to Rafale is J-10 with similar TWR (engine in J-10 is less powerfull but should have comparable TWR).
    half runway length?. now that is unbelieveable BS. it can only happen if Rafale is take much smaller amount of fuel.

    http://www.uscost.net/AircraftCharac...s/acfa18ef.htm

    For F-18E Take off distance with minimum load is 1300 feet.(21.7 tons weight) with maximum load is 3600 feet.
    we take the middle weights. like 4 ton weopon load and 6.8 ton fuel. that will bring it to 25ton takeoff weight. and use middle of take off distance at 1800feet. that is 550m.
    now show me Rafale with 4.7 tons fuel and 4ton of external load to take off at less than 250m. F-18E still will have longer range as it is still carrying 2 tons of extra fuel.
    1/ standard load: everybody has to carry the same amount of fuel and the same weight of weapons ('seems simple, though)

    2/ all these lengths are nice and well, but they're given for sea level. how do they translate into altitude? how much thrust engines loose when getting high and hot (depends of the engine construction and no two engines react the same). another thing worth noticing is that the SH has about 50% higher wing loading than the rafale (not to forget that their aerodynamic formula - delta wing vs classic wing differs as well). might be that with altitude, the lifting capability degrades faster on the SH than on the rafale

    In any case, we can talk about it for ages, the one result is there, the rafale got better results in technical trials than the SH, and as SH's electronics are top notch, the french must have made a difference somewhere

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