Are you really asking that, Kovy? Such information, or speculations, aren't that difficult to research if you look in the right places.
Given the recent outcomes, I think all the countries in question have learned something and all of them have done so the hard way.
Where did Dassault/France mess up ?
-Korea ? No ;
-Singapore ? No, or not as much as Eurofighter : Mr Lake is the first to claim that BAe made a "shambolic performance" there and were punished by Singapore for this by an early eviction ;
-Morocco : yes, complete Franco-French disaster ;
-Switzerland ? With Rafale ending first of the technical evaluation and gouvt finally choosing the cheapest option ?
Of course, DA still have to learn some lessons, and I'm sure they do. But at least, our aircraft is competitive (note that I'm not claiming superiority, I just mean that up to now, technically, it's "enough", and with global offers apparently better than Eurofighter's).
On the other hand, even worst pro-Eurofighter fanboys claim that BAe totally messed up in Singapore, and that EADS totally messed up in India...
Post india, we have 126 for Dassault and 87 for Eurofighter Gmbh.
Last edited by Kovy; 3rd March 2012 at 14:18.
One should never say it's over when it's not over. But the future looks much brighter for the Rafale than it looks for the EF. I actually believe Eurofighter lost the deal the couln't afford to lose. But the consortium can still secure more deals like Oman (which is not an open competition btw...) and Saudi Arabia contract extension (which was an open compretition btw...).
But if things turn allright:
126 for India 80 more to come
63 for UAE with domino effect on the region on Kuweit and Qatar (if you watch the news outside the defense sector, you'll understand the Qataris are developping a strategic relationship with France like never before).
36 for Brazil (that can go up to 120) with a strategic relationship already in place and secured deals in subs/helos.
Rafale GIE has taken a lot of shyte over the past years because it was unable to secure deals, well guess what, it did not break them either... negociations are still along the way in UAE and Brazil. And honestly, I would rather sign a deal with two of the emerging powers of the XXI century than Oman or Saudi Arabia...
As your accountability shows, the Rafale total production could very well equals or even exceed the typhoon one in 10 years.
That means that the small fly away price advantage of Rafale today will increase even more (Rafale production pace increasing while Typhoon one will slow down).
But you're right, nothing is settled yet.
Last edited by Kovy; 3rd March 2012 at 15:00.
>> Like wise for France/Dassault pre India, remember?
Well, I think the French government and Dassault have already learned an important lesson from the pre-India failures: You can't just hope and wait that your possible foreign customers will pay the money for developing and integrating the basic requirements (complete A2G capability, AESA radar, carrier-based variant, confirmatory future roadmap etc....) they need into your own fighter product, especially while your competitors already have all those basic requirements that your possible foreign customers need.
And it seems that the governments and manufacturers of Typhoon project still haven't learned the same lesson up to now.
Last edited by toan; 3rd March 2012 at 16:20.
Also I take note that it seems some are always trying to put it in a French VS British argument. It should not be. If logical counter argument is what some perceive as "aggressive" behaviour, but name calling and flaming is "appropriate" behaviour, then I'm happy I've lived long enough in this country to know that such attitude isn't the general rules, well at least where I live and the people I know.
Anyway this is about aircraft, and unless some here are working directly for BAE or Dassault they aren't "your" aircraft...
“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”
Talk about blowing things out of proportion.
Opit, I could at least say something that this little rock in the middle of the Atlantic are very good at which your country has been the victim of, and really isn't very good at. But I'm sure thats not the way to go...
You don't get orders without playing the political/economic/influence game, so it's blindingly obvious that France, Sweden and the USA will have been doing much the same as the UK with diplomacy/aid/trade/cultural links, etc. As long as it remains clean, and doesn't amount to bribery and corruption, it's all good and fair.
And actually, we all know that France is good at the political game, as the UAE confirmed when Sheikh Mohammed praised French President Nicolas Sarkozy for the role that he had played in keeping Dassault at the forefront of the UAE’s considerations saying that Sarkozy "could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal" while condemning Dassault, who he claimed seemed regrettably “unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms."
Sarkozy is clearly good at this stuff.
Right....Nothing has been settled yet. Kicking Typhoon out of the competition doesn't necessarily equal to that Rafale will get the deal with the chance of 100%......
I cant wait for all the people in the MMRCA to get debared from selling fighters to India by the MOD!
that would be wonderful!
Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle
Wg Cdr. Jackonicko impounds 2 Rafales for alleged illegal 'dumping' (whilst categorically denying any link between 'aid' and cricket):
oh but don't they look similar......
No Typhoon looks ugly with those canards, Rafale looks good.
Love Planes, Live Planes
Personally, I think the canards on both types look as good as each other and as bad.
At a glance, I see them as very similar looking aircraft and have to really look to see which is which.
I spose if I was a fanboy of either, i'd deny this?
The Rafale looks awesome all over. The typhoon looks great in some angles and ugly in some other angles, mostly depending if you see the air intakes or not... or the canards.
I wonder why one of the Rafale carries missiles.
BTW I love the fact that the french "cocardes" are high visibility. I wonder why the Typhoons roundels are low viz and yet the squadron markings are high viz?
"allah akbar": NATO's new warcry.
just an italian blogger repeating the stuff we're talked about (and dismissed) here already... nothing new under the sun
Indian defence minister has ordered an enquiry into allegations of irregularities and manipulation of the selection process for the MMRCA fighter jet which saw Rafale being chosen over Typhoon as preferred bidder.
The enquiry follows a letter written by MP M.V. Mysoora Reddy, who voiced his suspects and noted, as many others have done in India and elsewhere, that the choice of the Rafale is weird, considering that the performance of the french airplane in Libya has not been entirely shiny, and that the plane has never fared really well in comparisons and evaluations made in India and elsewhere (possibly with the exception of Switzerland, where the air force evaluation of Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen saw the Rafale victorious in all mission types, with Typhoon a close second and Gripen a distant follower).
so Rafale doing not so good in evals is the norm
but rafale doing good in swiss eval is an exception
and the Indian one must follow the former?
Hum... I think I must start to reconsider my opinion about French politicians... They must be so damn good !the plane has never fared really well in comparisons and evaluations made in India
Must be Carla... It has to be
“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”
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