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Thread: MMRCA - has Rafale been illegally subsidised?

  1. #481
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    I think that the MMRCA bid was not handled well by any of the EF partners, and that Germany and the UK each have lessons to learn.
    It appears there's one lesson they don't want to learn ; they need to deliver on their promises. The whole Eurofighter thing drags its feets since 1985 or so mainly because this kind of cooperation leads to procrastination due to a lack of leadership. At the end of the day, Germany and the UK get what they deserve.

  2. #482
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    I don't think that amounts to a bribe, and I'm sure that the USA, Sweden and France were engaged in similar activities that were designed to help win political influence.
    Any hard evidences to back that up ?
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  3. #483
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    Are you really asking that, Kovy? Such information, or speculations, aren't that difficult to research if you look in the right places.

    Quote Originally Posted by OPIT View Post
    At the end of the day, Germany and the UK get what they deserve.
    Like wise for France/Dassault pre India, remember? Despite having the products, they still couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery & messed up so many potential deals, even deals where they were the only bid. They done no better than the UK or Germany. Actually, it could easily be said France done much, much worse in those countries than UK & Germany did in India. Remember one's history, surely its not that easy to have a bit of brain fade, or maybe its certain parts of history one doesn't want to think about...

    Given the recent outcomes, I think all the countries in question have learned something and all of them have done so the hard way.

  4. #484
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    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    even deals where they were the only bid.
    Are you talking about Morocco ? This is only one deal.

    Where did Dassault/France mess up ?
    -Korea ? No ;
    -Singapore ? No, or not as much as Eurofighter : Mr Lake is the first to claim that BAe made a "shambolic performance" there and were punished by Singapore for this by an early eviction ;
    -Morocco : yes, complete Franco-French disaster ;
    -Switzerland ? With Rafale ending first of the technical evaluation and gouvt finally choosing the cheapest option ?

    Of course, DA still have to learn some lessons, and I'm sure they do. But at least, our aircraft is competitive (note that I'm not claiming superiority, I just mean that up to now, technically, it's "enough", and with global offers apparently better than Eurofighter's).


    On the other hand, even worst pro-Eurofighter fanboys claim that BAe totally messed up in Singapore, and that EADS totally messed up in India...
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  5. #485
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    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    Are you really asking that, Kovy? Such information, or speculations, aren't that difficult to research if you look in the right places.
    Yes I am. I'm fed up with Jack's empty claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    Like wise for France/Dassault pre India, remember? Despite having the products, they still couldn't organise a p*ss up in a brewery & messed up so many potential deals, even deals where they were the only bid. They done no better than the UK or Germany. Actually, it could easily be said France done much, much worse in those countries than UK & Germany did in India. Remember one's history, surely its not that easy to have a bit of brain fade, or maybe its certain parts of history one doesn't want to think about...

    Given the recent outcomes, I think all the countries in question have learned something and all of them have done so the hard way.
    As far as pre india deals are concerned, Dassault alone managed to be shorlisted in more contests than BAE, EADS and Alenia together

    Post india, we have 126 for Dassault and 87 for Eurofighter Gmbh.
    Game over
    Last edited by Kovy; 3rd March 2012 at 13:18.
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  6. #486
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    Kovy,

    One should never say it's over when it's not over. But the future looks much brighter for the Rafale than it looks for the EF. I actually believe Eurofighter lost the deal the couln't afford to lose. But the consortium can still secure more deals like Oman (which is not an open competition btw...) and Saudi Arabia contract extension (which was an open compretition btw...).

    But if things turn allright:
    126 for India 80 more to come
    63 for UAE with domino effect on the region on Kuweit and Qatar (if you watch the news outside the defense sector, you'll understand the Qataris are developping a strategic relationship with France like never before).
    36 for Brazil (that can go up to 120) with a strategic relationship already in place and secured deals in subs/helos.

    Rafale GIE has taken a lot of shyte over the past years because it was unable to secure deals, well guess what, it did not break them either... negociations are still along the way in UAE and Brazil. And honestly, I would rather sign a deal with two of the emerging powers of the XXI century than Oman or Saudi Arabia...

  7. #487
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    Quote Originally Posted by Breguet View Post
    Kovy,

    One should never say it's over when it's not over. But the future looks much brighter for the Rafale than it looks for the EF. I actually believe Eurofighter lost the deal the couln't afford to lose. But the consortium can still secure more deals like Oman (which is not an open competition btw...) and Saudi Arabia contract extension (which was an open compretition btw...).

    But if things turn allright:
    126 for India 80 more to come
    63 for UAE with domino effect on the region on Kuweit and Qatar (if you watch the news outside the defense sector, you'll understand the Qataris are developping a strategic relationship with France like never before).
    36 for Brazil (that can go up to 120) with a strategic relationship already in place and secured deals in subs/helos.

    Rafale GIE has taken a lot of shyte over the past years because it was unable to secure deals, well guess what, it did not break them either... negociations are still along the way in UAE and Brazil. And honestly, I would rather sign a deal with two of the emerging powers of the XXI century than Oman or Saudi Arabia...
    I agree.
    As your accountability shows, the Rafale total production could very well equals or even exceed the typhoon one in 10 years.
    That means that the small fly away price advantage of Rafale today will increase even more (Rafale production pace increasing while Typhoon one will slow down).

    But you're right, nothing is settled yet.
    Last edited by Kovy; 3rd March 2012 at 14:00.
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  8. #488
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    >> Like wise for France/Dassault pre India, remember?

    Well, I think the French government and Dassault have already learned an important lesson from the pre-India failures: You can't just hope and wait that your possible foreign customers will pay the money for developing and integrating the basic requirements (complete A2G capability, AESA radar, carrier-based variant, confirmatory future roadmap etc....) they need into your own fighter product, especially while your competitors already have all those basic requirements that your possible foreign customers need.

    And it seems that the governments and manufacturers of Typhoon project still haven't learned the same lesson up to now.
    Last edited by toan; 3rd March 2012 at 15:20.

  9. #489
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    Quote Originally Posted by TMor View Post
    Are you talking about Morocco ? This is only one deal.

    Where did Dassault/France mess up ?
    -Korea ? No ;
    -Singapore ? No, or not as much as Eurofighter : Mr Lake is the first to claim that BAe made a "shambolic performance" there and were punished by Singapore for this by an early eviction ;
    -Morocco : yes, complete Franco-French disaster ;
    -Switzerland ? With Rafale ending first of the technical evaluation and gouvt finally choosing the cheapest option ?

    Of course, DA still have to learn some lessons, and I'm sure they do. But at least, our aircraft is competitive (note that I'm not claiming superiority, I just mean that up to now, technically, it's "enough", and with global offers apparently better than Eurofighter's).


    On the other hand, even worst pro-Eurofighter fanboys claim that BAe totally messed up in Singapore, and that EADS totally messed up in India...
    +1, add to that the Morocco deal was more than DA and French govt singing two different tunes, there were issues with loan for the planes as well IIRC, and the US can print money at will so... But very funny to hear about "all" the deals the French lost.

    Also I take note that it seems some are always trying to put it in a French VS British argument. It should not be. If logical counter argument is what some perceive as "aggressive" behaviour, but name calling and flaming is "appropriate" behaviour, then I'm happy I've lived long enough in this country to know that such attitude isn't the general rules, well at least where I live and the people I know.

    Anyway this is about aircraft, and unless some here are working directly for BAE or Dassault they aren't "your" aircraft...
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  10. #490
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    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    Like wise for France/Dassault pre India, remember?
    If that makes you glad of your own failures, then so be it. But I'm not sure that's the way to go...

  11. #491
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    Talk about blowing things out of proportion.

    Opit, I could at least say something that this little rock in the middle of the Atlantic are very good at which your country has been the victim of, and really isn't very good at. But I'm sure thats not the way to go...

  12. #492
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kovy View Post
    Any hard evidences to back that up ?
    Firstly, I think that you took offence where there was none to be taken. I'm entirely relaxed that the UK hoped that its links with India and aid, and cricket, and who knows what else, would swing the deal, and that some politician has admitted as much. Any government that did not do what it takes to win such an important order would not be doing its job.

    You don't get orders without playing the political/economic/influence game, so it's blindingly obvious that France, Sweden and the USA will have been doing much the same as the UK with diplomacy/aid/trade/cultural links, etc. As long as it remains clean, and doesn't amount to bribery and corruption, it's all good and fair.

    And actually, we all know that France is good at the political game, as the UAE confirmed when Sheikh Mohammed praised French President Nicolas Sarkozy for the role that he had played in keeping Dassault at the forefront of the UAE’s considerations saying that Sarkozy "could not have done more diplomatically or politically to secure the Rafale deal" while condemning Dassault, who he claimed seemed regrettably “unaware that all the diplomatic and political will in the world cannot overcome uncompetitive and unworkable commercial terms."

    Sarkozy is clearly good at this stuff.

  13. #493
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    Right....Nothing has been settled yet. Kicking Typhoon out of the competition doesn't necessarily equal to that Rafale will get the deal with the chance of 100%......

    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...r-rafales.html

  14. #494
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    Quote Originally Posted by toan View Post
    Right....Nothing has been settled yet. Kicking Typhoon out of the competition doesn't necessarily equal to that Rafale will get the deal with the chance of 100%......

    http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...r-rafales.html

    It's a rehash of an India Today report done about two-three weeks earlier talking of two MOD members issuing dissent notes but signing away on the process.

  15. #495
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    Meanwhile, both the UK and French governments still love each other:

    http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...entId=blogDest

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  17. #497
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    I cant wait for all the people in the MMRCA to get debared from selling fighters to India by the MOD!

    that would be wonderful!
    Wrinkles wrinkles my kingdom fallen to a wrinkle

  18. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by matt View Post
    I cant wait for all the people in the MMRCA to get debared from selling fighters to India by the MOD!

    that would be wonderful!

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    Wg Cdr. Jackonicko impounds 2 Rafales for alleged illegal 'dumping' (whilst categorically denying any link between 'aid' and cricket):



  20. #500
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    oh but don't they look similar......

  21. #501
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    No Typhoon looks ugly with those canards, Rafale looks good.
    Love Planes, Live Planes

  22. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    No Typhoon looks ugly with those canards, Rafale looks good.
    But permanantly fixed re-fuelling probes really add something special to the aesthetics of the Rafale don't they?........NOT!

    Personally, I think the canards on both types look as good as each other and as bad.
    At a glance, I see them as very similar looking aircraft and have to really look to see which is which.
    I spose if I was a fanboy of either, i'd deny this?

  23. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by quadbike View Post
    No Typhoon looks ugly with those canards, Rafale looks good.
    Despite my fondness for Typhoon, I have to agree with this.
    Juris praecepta sunt haec: honeste vivere, alterum non laedere, suum cuique tribuere.
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  24. #504
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    The Rafale looks awesome all over. The typhoon looks great in some angles and ugly in some other angles, mostly depending if you see the air intakes or not... or the canards.

    I wonder why one of the Rafale carries missiles.

    BTW I love the fact that the french "cocardes" are high visibility. I wonder why the Typhoons roundels are low viz and yet the squadron markings are high viz?

    Nic
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    just an italian blogger repeating the stuff we're talked about (and dismissed) here already... nothing new under the sun

  27. #507
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    Quote Originally Posted by Klargplutten View Post
    this part is classic

    Indian defence minister has ordered an enquiry into allegations of irregularities and manipulation of the selection process for the MMRCA fighter jet which saw Rafale being chosen over Typhoon as preferred bidder.
    The enquiry follows a letter written by MP M.V. Mysoora Reddy, who voiced his suspects and noted, as many others have done in India and elsewhere, that the choice of the Rafale is weird, considering that the performance of the french airplane in Libya has not been entirely shiny, and that the plane has never fared really well in comparisons and evaluations made in India and elsewhere (possibly with the exception of Switzerland, where the air force evaluation of Rafale, Typhoon and Gripen saw the Rafale victorious in all mission types, with Typhoon a close second and Gripen a distant follower).

    so Rafale doing not so good in evals is the norm
    but rafale doing good in swiss eval is an exception

    and the Indian one must follow the former?

  28. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by J-20 Hotdog View Post
    this part is classic

    so Rafale doing not so good in evals is the norm
    but rafale doing good in swiss eval is an exception

    and the Indian one must follow the former?
    15 years of propaganda is difficult to overcome.
    The Rafale did extremely well in all serious evaluations and of course the plane demonstration in Libya was awsome. Everybody know that. The claims of this politician are so wrong...
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  29. #509
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    the plane has never fared really well in comparisons and evaluations made in India
    Hum... I think I must start to reconsider my opinion about French politicians... They must be so damn good !

    Must be Carla... It has to be
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  30. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jō Asakura View Post
    Wg Cdr. Jackonicko impounds 2 Rafales for alleged illegal 'dumping' (whilst categorically denying any link between 'aid' and cricket):

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