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Thread: Eurofighter Typhoon News & Discussions VI

  1. #151
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    CAPTOR-E on display at defexpo 12

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluewings View Post
    EE :


    I am sorry if you don 't fully get the ins and outs of what I am talking about EE , but it 's not my fault
    You seem to understand few things wrong , from my post you beleive that I am saying :
    - the people behind Spectra is better than the people behind DASS
    - the components used by Thalès are better than the components used by the others
    - ---> the rafale is the better aircraft

    This is NOT what I am saying EE , not what I am saying . Ok ?
    It is about what solution a group of enginerers can find for the task at hand , with a clear goal part of the original design , a good deal of money and intelligence to spare . It is not a secret that Spectra cost an harm , a leg and an eye and at the time of Rafale F1 , the price of the system was already a good few percent of the aircraft . Now and from the top of my head , Spectra is for more than 10% of the aircraft 's price .
    Thalès didn 't made it because they are more clever than others (maybe they are) but because they had to , so they had to dig deep into new grounds to build a system where the absolute priority was twofold , long range detection with pinpoint accuracy for :
    - EM mapping of the zone on the fly (to know what 's going on)
    - EM recognition of the adverse systems (for instant or futur use)
    The secondary goal was also twofold :
    - medium range stand-off jamming (to hide within the EM fog of war)
    - short range self defense

    Comparing DASS and Spectra is like comparing apples and oranges .
    Overall , Spectra is a better system but I am not thumping my chest because I know that the design (the desired goal) was higher with Spectra .
    DASS is a system designed primarely with two things in mind :
    - to warn the crew of a possible threat from far away
    - short self defense (Xeye+towed decoys)

    I did my homework on DASS a long time ago and I still do because I have a great interest in electronic means to get an edge against an adverse system . DASS is a very clever piece of work and against today 's RF missiles , it should do the job with panache , better than what the USA actualy have in the front line bare the F-22 . I can 't rate the Russian or Chinese fighters as I do not speak , read , Russian or Chinese and it doesn 't help

    Jacko , let 's say that we are in mid summer , july the 12th 2015 .
    What is the Typhoon ? What can it do ? What 's the radar , the ammo ?

    If I want to buy one , what do I get in front of my door ?

    Cheers .

    Electromagnetic of the zone of fly?
    Electromagnetic recognition of adverse systems? (Do you mean a threat libary?)
    DASS strangley can do all of the tasks you showed unique to spectra.
    DASS isn't just for what you said (smoking RafaleFanboyismGrass ?)
    Please explain further how SPECTRA IS unique and then we will compare.
    Your homework dosen't seem to be well..... accurate ;
    'The signals received by the the sensors are analyzed, are categorized, identifies, localizes priorisiert and on distances until to over 100km with an accuracy better than 1°. In addition these information is forwarded identified at the THAT headquarters computer (defensive Aids computer / DAC) where by means of stored libraries, with several thousand signal examples (probably 10.000+), the DAC the type of the transmitter, assesses is in which mode it is , around which weapon system it acts itself and carries out a Priority assessment corresponding to the dangerousness.'
    http://eurofighter.airpower.at/sensorik-dass.htm
    'The DASS is billed as being so sensitive it can pick out "more than enough" targeting information during a SEAD mission without recourse to a dedicated emission-location platform or an onboard antiradiation missile targeting system.'
    http://home.exetel.com.au/jwcook65/R...Dass%20JDW.jpg
    'The EuroDASS displays situational awareness information to the pilot which includes radar and SAM sites while enhancing survivability during military missions.'
    http://www.deagel.com/Aircraft-Prote...001493001.aspx
    http://www.selexgalileo.com/EN/Commo...Praetorian.pdf
    Oh and by 2015 mid-year Typhoon should be equiped with meteor, some should to be fitted with AESA and DASS should be up to Step 5(It adds targeting of airborne emitters) in capability.

    @ EELightning I complatley agree.:diablo:

  3. #153
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    Eagle,

    Tranches are a matter of funding. There was a major hardware change between Tranche 1 and Tranche 2, but there won’t be between Tranche 2 and Tranche 3.

    Blocks are production standards. In the early days they tended to also mark the jump between hardware and software changes, but do not necessarily do so now.

    Upgrades are intended to be applied fleet wide (or as close to fleet wide as the different block standards allow). Thus P1E will affect all Typhoons from Tranche 2 and beyond, and some elements will be ‘ported’ to Tranche 1 jets as well.

    P1E is of huge scope. In a modern, software driven aeroplane, changing the software can be more significant than adding a major new item of hardware – like the radar.

    The lack of quadrinational commitment to a defined upgrade plan beyond P1E is indeed ‘rather strange’, and is hampering the aircraft’s chances on the export market.

    Mercifully there are signs that the future capability roadmap may be close to gaining four nation approval, and if it does not, that the UK at least has a ‘plan B’.

    I can’t tell you, or Bluewings, what Typhoon will do in July 2015. SRP14 is not yet agreed. Meteor is yet to be funded for production integration (only for development and risk reduction). The exact timescale for AESA is not quite clear. I can guess, but that’s not certainty, is it?

    If everything goes right, expect AESA, Meteor, and at least one of the advanced/complex weapons (probably SPEAR/Brimstone if the UK shout loudest or Taurus/Storm Shadow otherwise).


    Bluewings,

    Your analysis of DASS is deeply flawed.

  4. #154
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    Ok thanks for the effort it is now clearer.

    I know that software changes can have a big impact but does the P1E include other things ? what the delivery commitment schedule ?

    Because when I make a comparison with a program that I know much better (rafale) thorough software changes occur quite regularly adding new capabilites or refining existing ones (F2.1, F2.2, F2.3 then F3.1, F3.2, and soon F3.3), not to mention thorough hardware upgrades like the spectra which is currently getting a major upgrade for the whole fleet independently of different tranches and blocks.

    From an external view the P1E is certainly an important step for the typhoon but if you put that in perspective with other program this looks as nothing really exceptional.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twinblade View Post
    CAPTOR-E on display at defexpo 12
    Ohh... I thought it was a new flashlight to be used in night clubs.

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    if you put that in perspective with other program this looks as nothing really exceptional.
    With respect, that's down to your lack of understanding, and to EF GmbH's failure to communicate rather than the actual facts.

    P1E represents a bigger step for Typhoon than F2>F3 did for Rafale.

    It includes a myriad of small but significant hardware changes.

    P1E is the 'left hand peg' against which all future enhancements rest. It provides the swing role HMI and moding improvements that will facillitate later weapons integrations. Typhoon already has a better MMI/HMI than Rafale, giving a lower pilot workload, and its edge will be increased with P1E. It brings significant radar, and dramatic MIDS and DASS improvements. These alone make P1E a seismic step change. It brings a dramatic enhancement to DVI. It gives full digital IRIS-T integration.

    You'll note that I haven't even mentioned the weapons and LDP integrations that are often viewed as the main feature of P1E.

    In itself it does not bring about a significant increase in the number and type of weapons available, though it does lay the foundations for these in terms of software and HMI.

    Moreover, within about two weeks I believe that we will see news that will demonstrate a rapid weapons integration capability that could render the agonising over the tortuous four-nation upgrade roadmap process irrelevant.

  7. #157
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    Is that linked to the UK "plan B"?

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    With respect, that's down to your lack of understanding, and to EF GmbH's failure to communicate rather than the actual facts.
    French bashing is not enough, now you need to discredit the Germans too ? Your stance is not what I would expect from a partner, you know.
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko
    P1E represents a bigger step for Typhoon than F2>F3 did for Rafale.
    Nice to see that you need the Rafale as a benchmark to describe the improvements of the so called "second best". You're making progress... :diablo:
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko
    It includes a myriad of small but significant hardware changes.
    You don't. You still are the most vocal Typhoon fanboy ever.

  9. #159
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    Talk about most of your own side first before you mention the Typhoon lot, Opit. As you lot like to announce, this is a >'Place aircraft name here'< thread after all. So it might be a good idea to 'Hop Back' to the Rafale thread if you haven't got anything worth reading about.

    Could you elaborate about UK's ‘plan B’, Jackonicko?

  10. #160
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    Why do Eurofighter GmbH have a stand at DefExpo '12, New Delhi, and Dassault don't? Cold shoulder?

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    Quote Originally Posted by EELightning View Post
    Talk about most of your own side first before you mention the Typhoon lot, Opit.
    Are you joking ? Jacko always need Rafale in his demonstration. At best, he will mention "another type" he "will not give the name of".
    Rafale news blog by Kovy :
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    The Rafale international forum :
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  12. #162
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    Hmmm yes, and your lot always needs a certain aircraft to compare with their little wonder toy, don't they. Give it a rest.

    In 'Typhoon only discussions' (See how these three words add up?), has there been anything new from DefExpo '12?

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    Quote Originally Posted by OPIT View Post
    French bashing is not enough, now you need to discredit the Germans too ? Your stance is not what I would expect from a partner, you know.
    Last time I looked, Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH was an international company.
    Mercurius Cantabrigiensis

  14. #164
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPIT View Post
    French bashing is not enough, now you need to discredit the Germans too ? Your stance is not what I would expect from a partner, you know.

    Nice to see that you need the Rafale as a benchmark to describe the improvements of the so called "second best". You're making progress... :diablo:

    You don't. You still are the most vocal Typhoon fanboy ever.
    TBH this is too aggressive.

    Jackonicko was just as scathing of BAE when it came to Singapore, the reference to F2/3 is irrelevant and coming on and suggesting that anti rafale comments have been made is paranoid.

    Some posters would have just not bothered to write anything, you on the other hand seem to want a fight?

  15. #165
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    With respect, that's down to your lack of understanding, and to EF GmbH's failure to communicate rather than the actual facts.

    P1E represents a bigger step for Typhoon than F2>F3 did for Rafale.

    It includes a myriad of small but significant hardware changes.

    P1E is the 'left hand peg' against which all future enhancements rest. It provides the swing role HMI and moding improvements that will facillitate later weapons integrations. Typhoon already has a better MMI/HMI than Rafale, giving a lower pilot workload, and its edge will be increased with P1E. It brings significant radar, and dramatic MIDS and DASS improvements. These alone make P1E a seismic step change. It brings a dramatic enhancement to DVI. It gives full digital IRIS-T integration.

    You'll note that I haven't even mentioned the weapons and LDP integrations that are often viewed as the main feature of P1E.

    In itself it does not bring about a significant increase in the number and type of weapons available, though it does lay the foundations for these in terms of software and HMI.

    Moreover, within about two weeks I believe that we will see news that will demonstrate a rapid weapons integration capability that could render the agonising over the tortuous four-nation upgrade roadmap process irrelevant.
    two things :

    the F2 to F3 upgrade was also a significant one with hardware and software upgrades. F3 build aircrafts have physical differences with F2s. I fear that unless you can precisely list what upgrades are actually done for typhoon and rafales the statement that the P1E goes further is only something coming out of your imagination. I am looking at changeling you on this issue as your claim is petty vague and unsubstantiated.

    Same for the MMI were your claims are nonsense. The typhoon has indeed a DVI and and HMS which are nice to have to reduce pilot workload but on the other hand typhoon cockpit layout is rather old fashioned and often criticized by pilots I talked with (french and others) as you need to perform a lot of head-down work to perform tactical tasks.

    On the rafale the tactical display is just under the HUD and is collimated in a way that you just need a blink to make a rapid check and with no eye refocus. Besides the "vertical" tactical situation is also displayed on the same screen unlike the typhoon which also limits unnecessary head movements.

    So the situation is in fact more balanced. Rafale cockpit is definitely more comfortable and with better ergonomics. The typhoon has an HMS and DVI for routine tasks.

    That being said the HMS is standard in any export so this issue is coming to an end with india.

  16. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmalaya View Post
    (...) you on the other hand seem to want a fight?
    No. It's called retaliation. Sometimes I just can't refrain to fight back when I read too much gorgeous superlatives that enlighten an otherwise dark picture
    Other than that, I'm done with schoolyard stuff and don't pay too much attention of what the Typhoon fanboys have to say (special tribute to EELightning).

  17. #167
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    Opit,

    I’m not bashing the Germans. EF GmbH is a quadrinational company, and it's presently led by an Italian, and its comms chief is Italian, with a UK deputy. I think that it, and its constituent companies, have all signally failed to communicate the content and significance of P1E. I'm not being nationalistic about this.

    Eagle compared P1E to the Rafale upgrades, and (I believe) underestimated its scope and significance. I’m happy to continue with his point of comparison.


    Eagle 1

    I’ve given you a flavour of P1E. It’s a seismic shift, and it makes more of a difference to the Typhoon’s capabilities than does the step from Rafale F2 to F3. You might say that it needs to, as F2 Rafale was already pretty impressive, so the F3 upgrade represented an evolution rather than a revolution.

    As to MMI, it’s you who are talking nonsense. There is nothing old fashioned about Typhoon’s cockpit layout, but in any case, MMI is all about how the displays work, not where they are positioned. The Swiss confirmed that Typhoon has a much lower cockpit workload, and, having actually talked to pilots who have flown both types, I’m quite convinced that Typhoon enjoys a superior MMI. This is particularly true with HEA, as the Typhoon pilot can now have the tactical situation displayed in his sightline, wherever he is looking.

    Just as Rafale enjoys some advantages over Typhoon, the reverse is also true, and one of the biggest Typhoon advantages lies in its MMI. Only the “Rafale is best in every way” fanboys bother denying it.

    Before you wax lyrical about the Rafale’s helmet, let’s wait until Dassault have actually integrated one and have a full service clearance, shall we?

    Incidentally Rafale’s cockpit is not ‘more comfortable’, nor can the claim of ‘better ergonomics’ be substantiated.

  18. #168
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    Could you elaborate about UK's ‘plan B’, Jackonicko?
    Just that the UK has already said that it will fund integration of Brimstone and Storm Shadow, and is showing signs of being willing to move forward autonomously if quadrinational agreement cannot be reached.

    I believe that a UK future capability roadmap was finalised last week, and hope to report on that soon.

    In any event, as I said before, I think we'll learn about a rapid weapons integration capability on Typhoon within the next two weeks. I believe that this will, or could, render all of the agonising over the four-nation future capabilities roadmap irrelevant, and could present the UK with a 'plan C', or an alternative route to 'plan B'.

  19. #169
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    Incidentally Rafale’s cockpit is not ‘more comfortable’, nor can the claim of ‘better ergonomics’ be substantiated.
    Yes it can, because we have our sources too, from both sides, for this, but also many other claims.

    The best way to "give it a rest" like EELightning asked me (an surprisingly not to you) is to go ahead, forget about Rafale here, whatever some French will dare to say in this thread (and I feel sorry for this).

    Jack, you can use all the awesome superlatives you want about Typhoon (look : "seismic shift", "dramatic enhancement", anything is "significant" enough to "render the agonising over the tortuous four-nation upgrade roadmap process irrelevant"...) but I really wonder what words are left for the Eurofighter communication department.
    Rafale news blog by Kovy :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

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    I’ve given you a flavour of P1E. It’s a seismic shift, and it makes more of a difference to the Typhoon’s capabilities than does the step from Rafale F2 to F3. You might say that it needs to, as F2 Rafale was already pretty impressive, so the F3 upgrade represented an evolution rather than a revolution.
    You haven't given any concrete evidence of comparison. As a consequence these remains empty hyperbolic claims. seismic ? Talk about hyperbolism...So when if it gets an AESA what will it be ? The upgrade of the universe ? The point is that you are short of evidences to even start backing your claims. Note that I don't discount the upgrade just that nothing indicates it will be "seismic" and that the scope go beyhond the F3 standard.

    As to MMI, it’s you who are talking nonsense. There is nothing old fashioned about Typhoon’s cockpit layout, but in any case, MMI is all about how the displays work, not where they are positioned. The Swiss confirmed that Typhoon has a much lower cockpit workload, and, having actually talked to pilots who have flown both types, I’m quite convinced that Typhoon enjoys a superior MMI. This is particularly true with HEA, as the Typhoon pilot can now have the tactical situation displayed in his sightline, wherever he is looking.

    Just as Rafale enjoys some advantages over Typhoon, the reverse is also true, and one of the biggest Typhoon advantages lies in its MMI. Only the “Rafale is best in every way” fanboys bother denying it.
    I am sorry but agin no evidences, unsubstantiated empty claims. The swiss said the rafale offered a better Situation awareness & sensor fusion which is also linked to MMI. MMI is indeed a big "plus" for the rafale compared to the typhoon. Even without a DVI and an HMS the rafale was pretty close to the typhoon for "pilot workload" which tells volume about the quality of rafale MMI. Give it an HMS and it will be far ahead.

    Note that I am not Fonck, Dare 2 etc and I am not one of those who claims that rafale is "best" in every aspect. Just that in those cases you bring zero evidences.

    I will for rafale MMI :

    test evaluation pilots (!) :
    “We were surprised by the efficiency of the Spectra electronic warfare system. It gave us a DEAD [destruction of enemy air defenses] capability that we had not envisaged. Spectra gave us a bearing on a [simulated] SAM site, despite our having been deliberately given the wrong location by intelligence. Then the FSO slewed to confirm the location.

    “At Dushanbe, we’ve achieved 12 maintenance man-hours per flying hour with three Rafales. That’s the same rate as our Mirage 2000Ds–which is a mature weapons system.

    “I have flown foreign evaluation pilots in our two-seaters, who have also flown the Eurofighter and the Gripen. They told me that our man-machine interface and data fusion is better than those aircraft.”
    http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-ne...attle-hardened

    RAF Chief of air staff Glenn Thorpy (!)
    the Chief of the Air Staff, Air Chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy visited the French Air Force base at St Dizier this week and had the opportunity to fly in a Rafale F2 with the Officer Commanding from 17 Squadron. 17 Squadron is the first French Air Force Squadron to incorporate an Operational Evaluation Unit (OEU) and a Operational Conversion Unit (OCU)
    The sortie; a medium level close air support mission which included Terrain Following Radar (TFR), consisted of 2 x Rafale F2; which has a full air-to-ground attack capability, against 2 x Mirage 2000 RDI multirole fighter aircraft. Air chief Marshal Sir Glenn Torpy was impressed with the Rafale F2 performance and the intuitive cockpit layout, and greatly impressed with the sensor fusion. The Rafale F2 aircraft at present are deployed in Afghanistan by the French Air Force and French Navy.
    http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/archive.c...FB230750159FD9

    Greek pilots (!) after Agean gust exercise :
    The impressions of the greek pilots from the Rafale, were concentrated on the very good situatnio awareness , thanks to link 16 and the big touch screens. These were proved to provide very good image even in conditions of intensive sunshine, which often reduces visibility. In general, the cockpit layout, particularly impresses the greek pilots. Particularly interest also had the use of the Spectra, on the use of which, the french base some of their air tactics that have developed.
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/rafale-vs-f-16-t66.html

    rafale vs typhoon UAE :
    Some advantages that make the difference.

    However, he heavily emphasized the performance of the french system in the field of arms data fusion, from his point of view the main reason of the superiority obtained. Instead of each sensor to display its studs (aircraft detected) on a specific screen, forcing the Typhoon pilot to operate an intellectual gymnastics , annoying in combat stress, to check if the plot of its corresponding screen of electronic warfare was or was not the one visible on the radar screen or IRST, the Rafale's systems present to the pilot a single plot on a screen, the system automatically compares the plots provided by the various sensors on board and decides if it is or not the same plane. The french pilots have also appreciated the agility of the antenna of the electronic RBE2 radar - The Typhoon has for now only a mechanical antenna - allowing to refresh the situation in the whole volume monitored. But they insist, for close combat, on the perfect controllability of their Rafale, thanks to the excellence of FBW, to the extreme limits of the flight envelope..
    http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums...le-News/page92

    Captain Romain :
    The Rafale merges the informations coming from its sensors to give a very reliable and clear picture to the pilot. It's already a considerable advantage over previous-generation aircraft, including EF and Gripen.
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showt...103455&page=13

    And yes rafale cockpit with its inclined seat and side stick is much more comfortable. I tried both at paris airshow and the difference is evident and also reported by pilots.
    Last edited by eagle1; 1st April 2012 at 16:52.

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    You guys really don't think the Typhoon will improve do you? Despite mounting evidence to the contrary you all (and i think i mean all, sadly) seem to repeat the mantra that any "improvement" will be no improvement.

    It undermines everything you argue if you fail to accept new information when it is displayed to you.

    So for example. You all believe your MMI is better than a Typhoon MMI. How subjective is that contention?

    You are all clearly moving to a point where, when the much publicised upgrades to Typhoon are a reality, you will say "It doesn't matter because Rafale is just better."

    Really.....? After all these years? Rafale is just better.........

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    mrmalaya,

    No one say the typhoon will not improve (although we/many question the pace) and no one say the rafale is better in every areas except Dare2.

    Now each time there is a debate about one or two particular points we see many saying "ho! the rafale fan boy that think the rafale is best in every aera" in a weak attempt to discredit the other-side and to avoid substantiating their own claims.
    Last edited by eagle1; 1st April 2012 at 17:08.

  23. #173
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    Quote Originally Posted by OPIT View Post
    (special tribute to EELightning).
    Its called "Humour", and having been to France, I know its something that isn't thought upon very often.

    Tmor, when I said 'Give it a rest', it was mean't in general. Obviously, DefExpo '12 is well underway and Eurofighter GmbH have a stand there where as Dassault do not. That is the only Rafale related topic I'm interested in at the moment (interested to know why Dassault have no stand there) and I'm interested to find out if there is anything new coming out of New Delhi regarding Typhoon. But obviously these couple of questions have been lost in a page load of unnecessary chit-chat.

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    Just that the UK has already said that it will fund integration of Brimstone and Storm Shadow, and is showing signs of being willing to move forward autonomously if quadrinational agreement cannot be reached.

    I believe that a UK future capability roadmap was finalised last week, and hope to report on that soon.

    In any event, as I said before, I think we'll learn about a rapid weapons integration capability on Typhoon within the next two weeks. I believe that this will, or could, render all of the agonising over the four-nation future capabilities roadmap irrelevant, and could present the UK with a 'plan C', or an alternative route to 'plan B'.
    Cheers, Jackonicko. I believe this was something BAE Systems were going to explain in a conference squashed by Eurofighter GmbH?

    Not much time to reply in proper, but thanks anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by TMor View Post
    Jack, you can use all the awesome superlatives you want about Typhoon (look : "seismic shift", "dramatic enhancement", anything is "significant" enough to "render the agonising over the tortuous four-nation upgrade roadmap process irrelevant"...) but I really wonder what words are left for the Eurofighter communication department.
    In 2018, Eurofighter GmbH will announce a major breakthrough that some dared to compare with the discovery America by Christopher Columbus in 1492. According to anonymous sources, Eurofighter GmbH will start to equip Typhoons with a fully operational AESA radar. British aerospace and defense experts, who agreed to speak on condition of animonity, believe this major discovery will considerably affect modern science as we know it. World renowned scientist Stephen Hawking stated this week that "if the the integration of AESA radar on Typhoons is complete by 2018, it would be the ultimate triumph of human reason – for then we should know the mind of God and explain the origins of our universe."
    Last edited by Breguet; 1st April 2012 at 17:12.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mrmalaya View Post
    You are all clearly moving to a point where, when the much publicised upgrades to Typhoon are a reality, you will say "It doesn't matter because Rafale is just better."
    Problem is: it's not a reality yet.

    Jackonicko/Jon Lake promises us breakthrough capabilities, but I ain't seen shyte in the news. So let's wait for an official release from BAe/EF GmbH.

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    Hi Eagle1,

    I don't think they count as evidence. They are are either reports of what someone else thought, or from French sources (in this instance tied to the Rafale programme in some way).

    As to the Torpy quote- it might be that its lost in translation but he is just saying in effect - "They have a very nice aircraft and it was very nice of them to let me look at it."

    not

    "I am so impressed by what the Dassault team have achieved I am going to recommend we can the whole Typhoon programme and switch to them".

    Of those sources the only one that I would say adds to your case is the comment from the aionline article. But again, its someone attached to Rafale.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Breguet View Post
    Problem is: it's not a reality yet.

    Jackonicko/Jon Lake promises us breakthrough capabilities, but I ain't seen shyte in the news. So let's wait for an official release from BAe/EF GmbH.
    He doesn't promise anything. He is trying to explain why the upgrade is important. He has promised news on weapon upgrades that will move us away from each nation's different timelines- and I will hold him to that because I for one am not sleeping between now and then!

    As to reality, your persistant and tiresome doubting just supports what I'm saying. Once this is all sorted out in the coming months I fully expect the majority (sadly) of the Rafale gang to deny that Typhoon has in any way been upgraded.....
    Last edited by mrmalaya; 1st April 2012 at 17:20.

  29. #179
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    Feb 2011
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    811
    mrmalaya,

    Of course you can dismiss those "reports" etc but if we play this game what to believe... ? If we had to eliminate all pieces of info from the country of origin think what would it imply for the typhoon and all the "second best" argument.

    That's why the multiplicity of sources I gave make this claim much more credible especially as you have at least two foreign report. That's how I work here : finding a common direction & cross check references. There is clearly a consistency between sources saying rafale Situation Awarness, Sensor fusion & MMI is excellent and most probably ahead of the typhoon. At least I am able to bring various sources and not unsubstantiated claims which should at minimum put a huge pinch of salt on JL claims.

    As for Torpy he could have just said "thank you for the flight" and making a consensual speech about franco-british cooperation. Yet he specifically insisted on the sensor fusion and cockpit...Not innocent. Anyway I know another british pilot who said this (Peter collins) :

    In answer to my own evaluation objectives, it was obvious the Rafale has earned its omnirole definition, even though I barely scratched the surface of its sensor and weapon capabilities. The aircraft has an incredible level of performance befitting a fourth-generation type, and despite flying a highly complex and demanding evaluation sortie, I felt completely at home in the aircraft and retained full situational awareness. If it could keep me safe, it would also do the same for young first-tourist pilots coping with tactical operations.

    The classic definitions of aircraft combat roles really do not do justice to this aircraft; the Rafale is Europe's force-multiplying "war-fighter" par excellence. It is simply the best and most complete combat aircraft that I have ever flown. Its operational deployments speak for themselves. If I had to go into combat, on any mission, against anyone, I would, without question, choose the Rafale.
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...rafale-334383/

    Without taking literally what he said it is yet another clue.

    You can add the swiss report as well to cross check my sources (better SA).
    Last edited by eagle1; 1st April 2012 at 17:34.

  30. #180
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
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    4,142
    Quote Originally Posted by eagle1 View Post
    You haven't given any concrete evidence of comparison. As a consequence these remains empty hyperbolic claims. seismic ? Talk about hyperbolism...So when if it gets an AESA what will it be ? The upgrade of the universe ? The point is that you are short of evidences to even start backing your claims. Note that I don't discount the upgrade just that nothing indicates it will be "seismic" and that the scope go beyhond the F3 standard.
    It's a bad idea to throw with stones while sitting in a glass house. While I understand your critics of jackonicko, you are merely criticising a behaviour which is a habit of yourself.

    I am sorry but agin no evidences, unsubstantiated empty claims. The swiss said the rafale offered a better Situation awareness & sensor fusion which is also linked to MMI. MMI is indeed a big "plus" for the rafale compared to the typhoon. Even without a DVI and an HMS the rafale was pretty close to the typhoon for "pilot workload" which tells volume about the quality of rafale MMI. Give it an HMS and it will be far ahead.
    Well it's no secret anymore that the Typhoon wasn't that mature at the time of the Swiss evaluation and that some of the capabilities proposed for block 5 examples didn't exist at this point in time, as the software wasn't fully developed. The MET score charts were related to the proposed 2015 configuration and Rafale's score for SA was marginally higher only and that with an AESA radar vs M-Scan on the Typhoon. I would expect a much greater discrepancy for the alleged way superior MMI and sensor fusion of the Rafale plus AESA.

    I will for rafale MMI :
    Much of this is rather unspecific either and not seriously proving anything.


    And yes rafale cockpit with its inclined seat and side stick is much more comfortable. I tried both at paris airshow and the difference is evident and also reported by pilots.
    That's to a certain extend subjective, I tried both my self and found them both rather comfortable as such. There are stronger and weaker points for either design.

    But back to the question of what P1E introduces.
    Without working out the associations between part A and B of the P1E. The former will be introduced later this year featuring some new hardware and the SRP10 software load, while the later will be introduced in late 2013 and features additional hardware as well as the new SRP12 software load.

    New hardware includes a crypto variable management system, new radios, DGPS, mode 5 compliant IFF, new DRFM, dual-polarized antennas and new TRD with improved transmission power and frequency coverage, improved MIDS terminal with increased data transmission capacity and the ability to sent/receive video images, new active DVI with increased vocabulary and 100 commands vs 26 as in the current form.

    Software wise we'll see MMI enhancements with new/improved display formats to support AG operations to a larger extend. It will be possible to attack pre-planned targets and targets of opportunity and engage multiple targets within a single pass. It will be possible to target ground targets while engaging aerial targets and the dynamic targeting will likely include automatic target recognition algorithms for the Captor radar and PIRATE in the SAR and STTI modes to identify detected ground targets automatically and generate target coordinates for weapons employment. This could also be linked to the introduction of vectorised maps. The SAR mode is new for the Captor radar and there might be additional AG modes, but there aren't any details available yet. The TERPROM terrain awareness system is said to support weapons delivery with P1E. It's currently unknown whether the Striker helmet will offer more support for AG operations than it's currently the place, but better support is planned, it's just not known whether it will be part of the P1E already or not. IRIS-T will be fully integrated via the digital interface and can finally exploit its full potential on the Typhoon. The Litening III LDP will be fully integrated with all functions, including AA target tracking and identification, a higher level of automation and support for delivering multiple weapons simultaneously. GBU-48 EPW II and PW IV will be fully integrated with their dual-mode seekers, cockpit selectable fuzes and the later will be cleared for supersonic flight and releases. That's what pops up my mind instantaneously, I may look up to search for additional details. I think that once P1E is established new weapons will be integrated more quickly, as it was the case for Rafale F3s which started with the same weapon/stores options as F2.

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