Eurofighter Typhoon News & Discussions VI

[totoro]

if the amount of oil is the main problem for long flights, would it be safe to assume that oil is spent faster if the engines are working harder? so, even if typhoons are to, say, supercruise helped by refuelling tankers, the oil would still be spent within 10 or so hours?

Why is that less than some other fighters around? If one googles around, it is possible to find examples of a f16 doing a 11 hour mission and f15 doing a 15 hour mission.

Would it be at all doable for a typhoon to take off from ascension, fly at whatever profile it needs to fly to conserve oil, fly over port stanley at falklands then return and land in ascension? Naturally, one would need a bunch of tankers to pull that off, but would it be theoretically possible?

[mrmalaya]

Yes but my query wasn't about the relative strength of French bladders. It was whether the M88 has problems running for longer than 10 hours in one go (apparently).

So if that is the case, would they have to do more than land, go to the loo, have a quick cafe au lait and get back in the cockpit? Does the engine need some time to sort itself out before they take off again?

Conversely my impression is that the Typhoon has flown some very long flights (with stops) but is the EJ200 limiting its endurance in the same way as the M88 seems to be?

[bloodshot]

During the Lybian campaign, RAF Typhoon pilots regularly flew sorties that lasted well over 6 hours and I believe there were a few that lasted up to 8 hours. I don't recall hearing or reading upon any other RAF fast jet types operating that many hours during sorties over Iraq, Serbia, Afghanistan etc. I believe RAF Tornado GR4 aircraft flew similar amount of hours when they were flying from the UK to Lybia and back home again.

I'm sure I remember reading that the longest mission during Op ELLAMY was flown by a Typhoon pilot, the typical sortie was around 7 hours apparently.

From a pilot’s perspective, the aircraft is spectacular. Despite spending on average 7 hours in the cockpit per mission you could not find a more comfortable aircraft to fly. The cockpit is large by fast-jet standards and the information from the radar, DASS and LINK-16 is displayed easily and accessibly. This allows you to function at 100% capability throughout the sortie, not plagued by fatigue or a lack of situational awareness. Due to the aircraft’s huge excess power it enables the flight from Gioia to Libya, some 650 miles, to take just over an hour, cruising at 40 000 feet, 0.9 mach, even with a war load of 4 Enhanced Paveway II 1000 lb bombs, a Litening III Targeting POD, AMRAAM and ASRAAM missiles.

http://www.eurofighter.com/media/new...perations.html

Are you sure about that? I thought they stopped in the Canaries before Ascension. The transit from Ascension to MPA is given elsewhere as 9.5 hours, which seems reasonable. 3955 miles/6365 km.

Left the UK 12-09-2009, arrived MPA 16-09-2009.

It was around 9 hours, although that doesn't necessarily indicate that oil levels were the limiting factor though. Aside from the issue of pilot fatigue there also needs to be an adequate reserve available in the event of a diversion to the nearest alternative airfield.

For the engineers of 216 Sqn, it had been a long night. One of the Tristars had suffered a brake unit failure. Their technicians were working flat out, but time was pressing. If the trail delayed more than 2 hours, it risked a painfully long duty day, particularly for the 2 Typhoon pilots. Everyone had been at work at least 4 hours already, and now faced a 9-hour flight, but this formed only part of the challenge. If MPA’s weather was unfit when the trail arrived, the MPA-based VC10 would then have to take them on an additional 3½ hour leg to Uruguay.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/no1group/news/...9447B37F78758A


So it would seem that the Typhoon carries sufficient oil for at least 12½ hours of flight.

[mrmalaya]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...entId=blogDest

Simulated operations with the AESA software show performance improvements....

Not sure if this counts as news TBH

[Nicolas10]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...entId=blogDest

Simulated operations with the AESA software show performance improvements....

Not sure if this counts as news TBH

Joust II: the return of the E-scan

In a theater near you in 2015...

Nic

[Mildave]

It may have been already posted but a nice video can never be posted too often.

[mrmalaya]

Although most objective observers understand that JOUST I was just a government information film

I really am surprised that decades on the pro-Rafale gang still get vexed about JOUST. Aren't there better things to be doing? Having lots of delicious celebratory curry after the win in India? Or perhaps throwing Toblerone at each other to show contempt for the Swiss?

Although I have noticed a new and particularly vicious anti-SAAB theme developing. Boycott of IKEA next is it?

[Mildave]

What lessons should the Eurofighter Typhoon consortium draw from India's decision to pursue MMRCA contract negotiations with rival Dassault Aviation for the Rafale?

The initial reaction in Eurofighter countries has been a mix of disappointment and disbelief. What has been notably absent, so far, is any soul searching on how this massive tender was lost. Other losses, such as Japan, could be relatively easily explained away and did not require such an after-action assessment; but the India situation is different. The stakes were simply too high.

[Mildave]

Anyway from an pure engineering perspective I really want the CAPTOR-E to be developed if possible.

[Nicolas10]

Although most objective observers understand that JOUST I was just a government information film

Oh come on just a little humour

I really am surprised that decades on the pro-Rafale gang still get vexed about JOUST. Aren't there better things to be doing? Having lots of delicious celebratory curry after the win in India? Or perhaps throwing Toblerone at each other to show contempt for the Swiss?

I fondly remember an indian restaurant in Cambridge. Best I've ever had.

Although I have noticed a new and particularly vicious anti-SAAB theme developing. Boycott of IKEA next is it?

I hate Ikea something fierce. From the moment I enter one of their shops I feel like I just entered a labyrinth or daedalus and I don't feel well until I'm out of there (seriously). So yeah I'm boycotting Ikea but for reasons that are completely unrelated to Gripen. (although I wish one could buy Daim somehwere else than at Ikea, here in France).

Nic

[f-35pwiii]

Could someone possibly tell me what happened to P2E ? Its just I noticed that there was to be a new ESM with targeting support to be implemented with it, or is it that the new ESM wil likely be on Tranche 3's DASS?

[EELightning]

Joust II: the return of the E-scan

In a theater near you in 2015...

Nic

Nic evil looking at the RBE2-AA in the corner: 'You read this? You're a disappointment to me, Child! With your littleness and too small for a Repositioner with your 1,000+ TR modules and, and...Beewwaaah!'

Just humour, Nic.

You should try the Indian resturant/takaway near where I live. Oouf, best ever. We're off there tonight as it happens.

Re: This E-Scan news. Its no surprise that Captor-E has been coming along with developments, more me at least anyway. But its nice to get some confirmation about it. Its a sweet find.

F-35pwiii, P2E has been cancelled. But P1E is still strong and is due to be introduced anytime now. Theres P1EA and P1EB, I'm not sure if 'A' & 'B' is actually an official term, so to speak (I might need a correction on this) but its what a lot of defence analysts have been using. However, further enhancements are still on the table after P1E; satalite communications, PSW, SEAD/DEAD, range extension, further enhacements in DASS etc.

[Scorpion82]

Future upgrades will be managed by smaller incremental upgrades rather than large block upgrades with comprehensive packages. The technologies/capabilities originally proposed for the P2E may still find their way into the Typhoon sooner or latter. The new approach may accelerate some capabilities, while others might need longer, but there haven't been any serious information about what P2E was meant to include. The DASS upgrades are everything which has been published separetly, spare the associations with some new weapons which will come with new SRP releases.

[Jackonicko]

The Wall piece you quote, beginning

"The initial reaction in Eurofighter countries has been a mix of disappointment and disbelief."

goes on:

There has been little indication that the consortium members are ready to open that can of worms.

One sure fire thing is that even if they have been doing any soul-searching, it won't have been in public.

Robert continues with a number of questions "that may need to be raised:"

They are all great questions, but in my mind their is another one, and it is as pertinent to the failure in Switzerland as the loss in India, and it has nothing, whatever, to do with Rafale!

[f-35pwiii]

Future upgrades will be managed by smaller incremental upgrades rather than large block upgrades with comprehensive packages. The technologies/capabilities originally proposed for the P2E may still find their way into the Typhoon sooner or latter. The new approach may accelerate some capabilities, while others might need longer, but there haven't been any serious information about what P2E was meant to include. The DASS upgrades are everything which has been published separetly, spare the associations with some new weapons which will come with new SRP releases.

In your opinion and through what you know about DASS would you think the digital ESM would be implemented onto DASS before 2015 e.g. through 'Austere' type upgrades , or are the partner nations neither willing to pay for targeting support through ESM?

[Mildave]

They are all great questions, but in my mind their is another one, and it is as pertinent to the failure in Switzerland as the loss in India, and it has nothing, whatever, to do with Rafale!

It never crossed my mind to think otherwise ...

[f-35pwiii]

Scorpion and EElightning, accordding to wiki scramble the Eurofighter gets the new ESM in Block 9: http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Eu...yphoon#Block_9
'improved DASS (new ESM/ECM, maybe improved TRD'
Does this mean that aircraft flying with SRP 5.1 have the new ESM ?
Any reply would be helpfull.

[Scorpion82]

Scorpion and EElightning, accordding to wiki scramble the Eurofighter gets the new ESM in Block 9: http://wiki.scramble.nl/index.php/Eu...yphoon#Block_9
'improved DASS (new ESM/ECM, maybe improved TRD'
Does this mean that aircraft flying with SRP 5.1 have the new ESM ?
Any reply would be helpfull.

There will be new dual-polarized ESM/ECM antennas, new DRFM and new TRDs with increased frequency coverage and transmission power, possibly the MK2 variant of the Ariel. It hasn't been introduced with block 9 which are around for some time now, but these enhancements are merely incorporated as part of the P1E A.

[obligatory]

What's 'TRD' ?

[Scorpion82]

Towed Radar Decoy, sometimes referred to as towed decoy only.

[f-35pwiii]

Scorpion, Ihave found a few posts made by someone on a spanish forum :
http://translate.google.co.uk/transl...page-11&anno=2

I translated something he said about P1E;

'T2 capabilities also will be delivered progressively and will improve with Future Capabilities Programme Phase 1 (Phase 1 Programme Future Enhancements-FEP) (Note: also called P1E, Phase 1 Enhancements) hired last April (2007) and that must be completed in 2012 (NOTE: this improvement is to start soon (2011) applying in all T2 delivered and delivered.) And as you see a rapid improvement applies to many fighters in a short time, then simple (must rely heavily on 'simple' software changes fleet.) Eg the new weapons and pod are already integrated by Eurofighter. ((only need to add the change in the operating software of the plane)). T2 capabilities will also be progressively and improve program capabilities future phase 1 (Future Enhancements Programme Phase 1-EFF) (Note: also called P1E, Phase 1 Enhancements) hired last April (2007) and should be completed in 2012 (Note: this improvement will begin to implement in the near future (2011) in all the given T2 and deliver.) And as you can see is a rapid improvement (applies to many fighters in a short time), then simple (must be much 'simple' software changes.) E.g. the new weapons and pod are already integrated by Eurofighter. ((Only you need add the change in the operating software of the aircraft)).'
He then listed a few things that P1E contained including this:
,DASS (digitization)
I wouldn't know what this could imply so this is why im asking you.
But then after that he goes on to write in the best translation possible :


'Enhancement 1: replace the antennas ESM by others that would allow dual polarization in reception, both in low band as in the high band. Thus is achieved the detection of circularly polarized signals to left and right hand, plus any linearly polarized signal. This allows for the detection of circularly polarized signals go right to left, in addition to any signal of linear polarization.

Enhancement 2: Extending the range of low-band radio frequency (up to the band G) towed decoy and increasing their effective radiated power. Enhancement 2: Extension of the RF range in low band (until the band G) of the towed decoy and increase its effective radiated power.

Enhancement 3: Improvement of DRFM (Digital Radio Frequency Memory) subsystem ECM 'on board' with increase in its effective radiated power, spurious reduction and refining techniques disruption and deception. Enhancement 3: Improved the DRFM (Digital Radio Frequency Memory) subsystem of the ECM "on board", with an increase in its effective radiated power, reduction of spurious and refining the techniques of disturbance and deception.

Those already signed up here (to be applied in the P1E, as stated below). Up to here the already signed (to be applied in the P1E, as said below). And now the possible future: and now the possible future:

Enhancement 4: Extending the range of RF subsystem ESM in low band (up to the band C). Enhancement 4: Extension of the radio range of the ESM subsystem in its low band (up to C-band).

Enhancement 5: Replacing the current ESM receiver with a digital receiver to improve the detection capability (to detect signals below the noise level), improve the resolution of ambiguities and add the ability to locate which has been (support for 'targeting'. Enhancement 5: Replacing the current ESM receiver by a digital receiver to improve the detection capability (allows you to detect signals below the noise level), to improve the resolution of ambiguities and add the ability to location of issuers (support for the "targeting"

Enhancement 6: Provision for extending the frequency range of ECM subsystem 'on board' in the low band. Enhancement 6: Provision for the extension of the radio range of the subsystem ECM "on board" in its low band.

Enhancement7: Extension of the range of RF subsystem ECM 'on board' in low band. Enhancement 7: Extension of the radio range of the subsystem ECM "on board" in its low band.

Of these seven improvements, the first three will be implemented in 2011, with the first enhancement package for aircraft of Tranche 2 (P1Ea) (Note: applies to all T2 between 2011 and 2013). Seven of these improvements, the first three will be implemented in 2011, with the first package of improvements for the Tranche 2 aircraft (P1Ea) (NOTE: applies to all the T2 between 2011 and 2013).

Improvements 4 and 5 are scheduled for 2014, as part of option package currently being negotiated for the Tranche 3 (P2Ea). The improvements 4 and 5 are planned for the year 2014, as part of a package of options currently being negotiated for the Tranche 3 (P2Ea).

Spain has rejected the improvements 6 and 7 due to lack of maturity in its development, risk of delay associated since their implementation would require the use of an external pod (about the size of the antennas), mortgaging weapon stations. Spain has been deprecated improvements 6 and 7 due to the lack of maturity in its development, risk of delay associated because the implementation of the same would require the use of an external pod (by the size of the aerials), mortgaging weapon stations.'

Could you possibly tell me what he means by 'Digitization of DASS' ? And then why he says that the digital reciever will with P2Ea but also with P1E?
I know this is alot to ask its just I have seen how much you have posted about DASS and your wiki like knowledge of it.

[Scorpion82]

Some DASS components are still based on analogue systems. P1E will increase the digital content of DASS, but only the 5th step of the DASS roadmap will see the installation of a digital ESM receiver. The ESM sub system is just one of many parts of the DASS. That's all about it.

[Nicolas10]

From another thread...

AASM Hammer is a great weapon. It will be great to see it on Typhoon.....

It would be great for the typhoon indeed. How many and where would they carry it and on which pylons?

I suppose you could fit 3 of them on the inside wing pylon and still carry 2 fuel tanks and 1 LDP. Not too shabby.

Nic

[Merlock]

From another thread...



It would be great for the typhoon indeed. How many and where would they carry it and on which pylons?

I suppose you could fit 3 of them on the inside wing pylon and still carry 2 fuel tanks and 1 LDP. Not too shabby.

Nic

Three AASM under a wing ? Would the typhon's ground clearance allow that ?

[EELightning]

Typhoon could (in theory) only carry two 550lb class AASMs on stations 3 and 4, two per station. Not the three (or six) that is usually seen on Rafale during peace time. I say peace time because I've only come across pictures of Rafales carrying no more than four during the likes of Afghanistan & Libya.

And I say two AASMs each on Typhoon's stations 3 & 4 because these two stations are cleared for weights of up to 1,300lb+. So not quite three each but two is enough. Other A/G hardpoints such as the wet stations and the two most inner ones (5, 6, 7 & 8) could easily carry three AASMs each as they're cleared for weights up to 3,100+lb and 2,800+lb, respectively. I don't think clearence would be a problem for the 550lb class weapons.

As much as I would like Typhoon to have AASM integrated, I believe we'd witness the SDB series and Pilum weapons before then.

[swerve]

Hasn't AASM been cleared for 125kg bombs yet? If not, they should hurry up with it.

[Nicolas10]

There was a post about the AASM 125 being tested and what range was achieved. I don't rememeber the range though, was it 75 km? 90 km?

Nic

[Mildave]

Eurofighter Typhoon Hits New Milestone

[f-35pwiii]

[QUOTE=Scorpion82;1871911]Some DASS components are still based on analogue systems. P1E will increase the digital content of DASS, but only the 5th step of the DASS roadmap will see the installation of a digital ESM receiver. The ESM sub system is just one of many parts of the DASS. That's all about it.[/QUOUTE]
It would be intresting to know how they plan on implementing it, but sadly there is no information currently released, perhaps in the future they will come to an agreement on how.

[Jackonicko]

As much as I would like Typhoon to have AASM integrated, I believe we'd witness the SDB series and Pilum weapons before then.

I wouldn't bet on that.