Eurofighter Typhoon News & Discussions VI

[EELightning]

I'm not one of those that posts un-related reports or ones that are bollox such as just posted by Eagle1, whom has a bit of a history of it. So a bit of a moot point.

Whats wrong with the claims, I hear you ask? First of all look at the source they come from and do a quick check of The Register's history and particularly it's author.

The claim that the Tornado GR4 being "inferior" to the F-18 is rather silly to say the least, especially when one doesn't go into detail about which areas in A/G. We all know that Typhoon has quite a way to go in the A/G department but to say that the Typhoon "probably isn't a lot better than a Hornet" in A/A is rather far fetched.

There are reports worth posting and there are reports that aren't. This one falls in the latter category.

[eagle1]

I'm not one of those that posts un-related reports or ones that are bollox such as just posted by Eagle1, whom has a bit of a history of it. So a bit of a moot point.

Whats wrong with the claims, I hear you ask? First of all look at the source they come from and do a quick check of The Register's history and particularly it's author.

The claim that the Tornado GR4 being "inferior" to the F-18 is rather silly to say the least, especially when one doesn't go into detail about which areas in A/G. We all know that Typhoon has quite a way to go in the A/G department but to say that the Typhoon "probably isn't a lot better than a Hornet" in A/A is rather far fetched.

There are reports worth posting and there are reports that aren't. This one falls in the latter category.

So should we ask the permission to post a report now ? If you feel it is not worth replying simply ignore the report. I don't see anything wrong with it. I can understand that this source is usually not very friendly to the typhoon but his arguments makes sense. With F18SH the UK could tackle with more efficiency and more capability the realistic threats it would face than with the typhoon/tornado combo letting appart industry consideration.

[Scorpion82]

Well in the opinion of this author the UK should pay for themore expensive carriers, wait for the F-35C and acquire the F-18 as a stop gap. That guy appears to suggest the legacy Hornet with all his babbling and even if it's the SH it would come on top of Tornado and Typhoon. If the SH should have been purchased as an Tornado IDS/ ADV replacement this should have been done a decade ago. Whether it makes much sense these days is rather questionable. Better spent that money on the Typhoon to boost its capabilities to a new level.

[eagle1]

Well in the opinion of this author the UK should pay for themore expensive carriers, wait for the F-35C and acquire the F-18 as a stop gap. That guy appears to suggest the legacy Hornet with all his babbling and even if it's the SH it would come on top of Tornado and Typhoon. If the SH should have been purchased as an Tornado IDS/ ADV replacement this should have been done a decade ago. Whether it makes much sense these days is rather questionable. Better spent that money on the Typhoon to boost its capabilities to a new level.

Agreed. I was not considering the whole scheme depicted by the author actually but focused on an hypothetical scenario of F18SH instead of of the Typhoon/tornado combo.

[EELightning]

Post what nonsense you wish to highlight from the report about the Typhoon & Tornado, anyone with an idea wouldn't read much more let alone post it. His arguements are clearly against anything to do with the RAF.

With F18SH the UK could tackle with more efficiency and more capability the realistic threats it would face than with the typhoon/tornado combo letting appart industry consideration.

The Tornado GR4 is never going to have the A/A capabilities of the Super Hornet, sure, but it's quite a match for it in A/G. On the other hand, the Super Hornet is never going to have the A/A capabilities of the Typhoon, however, it can be safely said that the Typhoon will have the A/G capabilities to match the Super Hornet.

Pre 9/11, who'd thought that these modern day fighters would be performing, somehwhat unorthodox, sorties for the past 10 years with upgrades & enhancements to help them adapt to this kind of environment.

The term, "Realistic Threats", is often given too much thought sometimes.

I don't grasp how the Super Hornet can tackle threats with more efficiency and capability than the Typhoon and Tornado, Typhoon/Tornado combo, which ever way one wants to put it.

[Scorpion82]

A homogenous fleet of F/A-18E/F would be more cost effective than a mixed fleet of Tornado GR.4 and Typhoon FGR.4. but at the end of the day the RAF is going to retire its GR.4s around 2018 anyway, while the Typhoon will be upgraded to take on additional roles. The SH would be superfluous. By the time the SH would be operational the Tornado is already close to be retired and the Typhoon will be more capable. There wouldn't be a serious gain by introducing the SH.

[mrmalaya]

two articles to do with questioning the value of typhoon to the uk in 24 hours. in both cases the articles have been rubbished quickly. whats going on guys?

[Fedaykin]

Read the rubbish that lot put on line. Much of it is easily demonstrated to be false, e.g. Sharkey Ward makes claims about the performance of Tornado in the 1990-91 Gulf War which contradict not only the official accounts, but those of the Tornado crews, ground crews, journalists who were on the spot, & everyone else who (unlike him) actually had first hand knowledge. According to him, Tornado crews were incompetent & cowardly, & that combination caused the majority of their losses. To draw this conclusion, he has to change the dates, places, & causes of losses. There's exactly one (a 'ladder' explosion of bombs dropped too low for their fusing) he's right about, & IIRC he blames that on the air crew, because that fits his argument, when it from what I've read it could have been a fusing mistake or fuse fault.

The rest of their garbage is of similar (low) quality. Evidence is selectively & misleadingly reported. Apples are compared with oranges. Often, outright untruths are told (though I think the authors don't realise it - they're too blinkered). As someone who is pro-Navy, I find the Phoenix Think Tank embarrassing. The RAF thinks it's wonderful, because it discredits the pro-Navy lobby. The RAF can point to it & say "See? This is the sort of rubbish that admirals put out. How can you take any notice of them?"

Agreed I am also pro navy (actually pro all services) and see the problems with the Phoenix Think Tank...actually they make Carlo Kopp's Air Power Australia think tank look balanced and reasonable.

To add to your post, Sharkey is pretty much Persona non Grata within the Royal Navy as well. He has attacked other (often better) pilots in the service, the admiralty and highly criticised 800 NAS during the Falklands war (ignoring the minor fact that 800 NAS got more kills!). His temper tantrum at an RAF base on his return to the UK is legendary! After the war he is regarded as an arch bull$hitter especially in respect of Harrier performance and capabilities, his contempt for the RAF is well known and high ups in the MOD regarded him as "somebody not to trust national secrets with"!

I actually linked his article about RAF GW1 Tornado operations on the eGoat website...to say that he will probably need a stab vest if he ventures anywhere near an RAF base now is in no doubt!

I have no problem with critics of the RAF, Typhoon and decisions made by the powers that be...on the other hand I have little time for people who have an axe to grind due to petty light vs dark blue bias.

[EELightning]

To add to your post, Sharkey is pretty much Persona non Grata within the Royal Navy as well. He has attacked other (often better) pilots in the service, the admiralty and highly criticised 800 NAS during the Falklands war (ignoring the minor fact that 800 NAS got more kills!). His temper tantrum at an RAF base on his return to the UK is legendary! After the war he is regarded as an arch bull$hitter especially in respect of Harrier performance and capabilities, his contempt for the RAF is well known and high ups in the MOD regarded him as "somebody not to trust national secrets with"!

If I may add myself. When I read his book it gave me the impression Sharky was fighting two wars, one against the Argentines and the other being the RAF. Further more I got the impression he respected the Argentines more than he did 800 NAS, if I remember correctly he looked down on what the RAF Harrier GR3s brought to the party regarding A/G capabilities obviously, quite possibly intentionally, forgetting that the GR3s were as good at A/G as the FRS-1s were at A/A. The GR3s were considered better at A/G than the the FRS-1s.

I think I heard about his tantrum at the RAF base. Was that the one where he expected a red carpet at his feet or something?

To keep the discussion on topic to the thread; later in his book he criticised the Typhoon programme, back when ZH558 was into various trials, claiming it was no good and that the Harrier was the way to go pretty much. I've got his book somewhere in my collection, but can't be ar$ed to flick through his biased gibberish. A good book but somewhat repetitive. Dave Morgan's is much better.

[Jackonicko]

My post no.460 on the last page:

While I have every respect for Nigel Ward's bravery and for the contribution he made in the Falklands War, 30 years ago, his propensity for 'rubbishing' the contribution of anyone else (even the other SHar squadron, which was actually more successful than his own, and especially of the RAF) is legendary.

His recent antics in supporting CVF have been hilarious, and I'm afraid that I don't take him seriously. What's next? Are you going to post links to articles in the Register by Lewis Page?

And as soon as he's done some googling, Eagle 1 obliges, proving himself to be as credulous and witless as Page is!

[mrmalaya]

I don't follow why they are doing it. And its more than one poster which implies they have talked about it elsewhere and are attempting a co-ordinated "counter propaganda" strategy.

We are suddenly getting lots of use of the word "propaganda" and very biased articles posted here.

For that matter the Gripen thread is being polluted with anti-Gripen articles too.

Really nothing better to do?

[EELightning]

And as soon as he's done some googling, Eagle 1 obliges, proving himself to be as credulous and witless as Page is!

Lewis Page's reports about the Typhoon are quite entertaining, but they have some way to go before they're better than Bluewings' claim that the 'Typhoon is just a souped up Mirage.' Classic!

Most recent(ish) news:

Eurofighter back on for Japan?

During his official visit to Tokya, UK Priminister David Cameron has renewed the UK's commitment to signing a Defence Co-operation Memorandum with Japan in the near future.

During a meeting with Japanese Prime Minister Yoshihiko Noda, Mr Cameron agreed thet their respective defence ministers would sign the memorandum next time they meet. In parallel, officials will be discussing a range of defence programmes that present industrial opportunities for both the Uk and Japan.

According to the Daily Telegraph, a new package would include British designed Future Combat Ships and additional AW101 Merlin helicopters. If signed, the UK and Japan will collaborate in a number of areas, including mine warfare. In addition, the deal could see Tokya renege on its F-35 buy in favour of the Eurofighter Typhoon to fulfil its F-X fighter requirement. Despite having been rejected in favour of the F-35 in last year's F-X competition announcement, mant see the defence memorandum as a possible route back for the Typhoon. Japan has voiced serious concerns over the F-35 cost and potential delays, and an F-4EJ Kai Phantom replacement cannot be allowed to slip further.

Regarding the UAE:

Elsewhere, British Ministers say the Typhoon still has a chance of winning an order from the United Arab Emirates. The announcement came amid growing rumours that France was close to sealing a $10-billion deal for 60 Dassault Rafales. A previous agreement with Dassault collapsed in 2011 after UAE officials called the proposed terms 'uncompetitive and unworkable'. Gerald Howarth, UK minister for international security, said: 'There is real hope for substantial partnership should the UAE select the Typhoon... it is now a real possibility.'

Source: Combat Aircraft Monthly, Vol 13, No. 6, June Edition - News section, pages 30-31.

A few paragraphs from a piece reported by Jon Lake regarding Saudi Typhoons:

Having rejected the Litening pod, the RSAF reportedly considered Lockheed Martin's Sniper pod, before settling on the Thales Damocles pod - already being built in Saudi Arabia by AEC for the RSAF Tornado fleet. Integration work on the Damocles pod is believed to be about to begin at Warton.

Defence News reported that problems in Saudi Arabia with acquiring Paveway IVs were confirmed by Britian's defence attache in Washington, Maj Gen Francis Hedley Robertson 'Buster' Howes. The Paveway IV allows the pilot to select a desired angle of impact and direction of approach for the bomb, as well as a range of fusing options, all selectable by the pilot, in the air. This allows 'effect' to be very precisely tailored, and can allow the weapon to offer very low collateral damage. The American block on supplying Paveway IV to Saudi Arabia, argueably its most important ally in the Gulf region, must have come as agrave setback to the RSAF.

The RSAF is now understood to be looking at acquiring the Sagem AASM (Armement Air-Sol Modulaire, air-to-surface modular weapon) Hammer in place of the Paveway IV, and is looking to this on both the Tornado and the Typhoon.

The Saudi plans to use the Damocles and AASM on the Typhoon demonstrate a hitherto unexpected capability for integrating new weapons and systems on the aircraft flexibly and in a rapid timescale, and seem to show that hitherto slow pace of weapon integration has been imposed by funding constraints and not by any technical difficulty.

It is believed that BAE Systems is offering further air-to-ground weapons options and integrations to the RSAF (perhaps including an early integration of the Storm Shadow cruise missile), and in shorter timescales, supporting the RSAF's aspiration to keep the aircraft at the core of its future fleet plans. These could see the Kingdom ordering further Typhoons.

This could prove to be of pivotal importance to a number of potential Typhoon customers, including the United Arab Emirates , who could perhaps see the Saudi example as evidence that a similar stand-alone integration of their Black Shaheen stand-off missile on the Typhoon could be achieved before any NETMA clearance of a Taurus/Storm Shadow integration.

Source/author: Combat Aircraft Monthly, Vol 13, No. 6, June Edition, pages 26-27. Jon Lake. Much more is reported in the report.

[EELightning]

The funding being set aside includes an extra £4 billion for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance projects (such as the Solomon and Crowsnest efforts) and £7 billion for complex weapons. Eurofighter Typhoon upgrades are also to be funded, Hammond says, without giving details of which enhancements are due.

http://www.aviationnow.com/Article.a..._p0-457436.xml

P1EA has already been funded for and is due to enter frontline operational service. Anyone else have any other ideas of what these upgrade & enhancements might be?

[Jackonicko]

Hammond has previously committed to Storm Shadow and Brimstone, with the partner nations or without. Contract One means that 'without' is now actually possible.

[EELightning]

Its a pity this wasn't done a few years ago, but better now than never I guess. Hopefully, this news will shut some people up that doubt any funding.

Have the RAF recently shown any interest in Conformal Fuel Tanks?

[mrmalaya]

So to recap,

this Typhoon upgrade he mentioned in parliament is just missile integration?

Hammond is very big on emphasising that this is all pre 2015 in terms of the next SDSR so whatever he is talking about is happening sooner rather than later (this is worth mentioning for the Rafale gang really).

[EELightning]

If he previously mentioned the integration of Storm Shadow and Brimstone onto Typhoon, and taking this quote into account: 'Eurofighter Typhoon upgrades are also to be funded, Hammond says, without giving details of which enhancements are due.', then it must be more than just the integration of these missiles. And one must be aware that, from what I believe, the Typhoon needs more than just the software of P1E (which has already been funded and is due to enter operational frontline service) to operate these missiles. So its most certainly he has other enhancements in mind, who knows may be the second part of P1E known as 'B', further funding for Captor-E, Meteor, SDB, other forms of software and such.

As is quoted, he's not giving away any details about the enhancements, and we already know about Brimstone and Storm Shadow - for quite some time I can say, which I remember it was stated that funding has gone ahead back when the Lybian Campaign was ongoing, middle of '11. And as I say P1E is already funded, so...

Interesting times indeed.

[mrmalaya]

Well he could just be re announcing the Brimstone/Storm Shadow work to reinforce his statement but we shall see.

[kev 99]

If he previously mentioned the integration of Storm Shadow and Brimstone onto Typhoon, and taking this quote into account: 'Eurofighter Typhoon upgrades are also to be funded, Hammond says, without giving details of which enhancements are due.', then it must be more than just the integration of these missiles. And one must be aware that, from what I believe, the Typhoon needs more than just the software of P1E (which has already been funded and is due to enter operational frontline service) to operate these missiles. So its most certainly he has other enhancements in mind, who knows may be the second part of P1E known as 'B', further funding for Captor-E, Meteor, SDB, other forms of software and such.

As is quoted, he's not giving away any details about the enhancements, and we already know about Brimstone and Storm Shadow - for quite some time I can say, which I remember it was stated that funding has gone ahead back when the Lybian Campaign was ongoing, middle of '11. And as I say P1E is already funded, so...

Interesting times indeed.

We're looking at SDB for Typhoons, since when has that been on the table?

[EELightning]

Mrmalaya, may be. But as I say, and I believe in so (corrections welcome), that the software needed to integrate these weapons is more than what P1EA has to offer, which has already been funded for.

Kev99, if I remember correctly, a piece was written in Air Forces Monthly's news section that funding for further integrations of A/G weapons on Typhoon would be undertaken in the next five years, at the time of mid '11 when the Lybian Campaign was underway. I'm 90% positive SDB was mentioned in the list.

Plus, from the RAF website:

Future weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb. Additionally, it is intended to upgrade the radar to an Active Electronically Scanned Array.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/typhooneurofighter.cfm

[kev 99]

Mrmalaya, may be. But as I say, and I believe in so (corrections welcome), that the software needed to integrate these weapons is more than what P1EA has to offer, which has already been funded for.

Kev99, if I remember correctly, a piece was written in Air Forces Monthly's news section that funding for further integrations of A/G weapons on Typhoon would be undertaken in the next five years, at the time of mid '11 when the Lybian Campaign was underway. I'm 90% positive SDB was mentioned in the list.

Plus, from the RAF website:

Future weapons integration will include Meteor air-to-air missile, Paveway IV, Storm Shadow, Brimstone and Small Diameter Bomb. Additionally, it is intended to upgrade the radar to an Active Electronically Scanned Array.

http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/typhooneurofighter.cfm

Good, I've been hoping we'd be buying some for the F35s this pretty much guarantees it.

[EELightning]

Good, I've been hoping we'd be buying some for the F35s this pretty much guarantees it.

Indeed. Now that the RSAF are in the process of integrating Hammer onto their Typhoons for an UOR - I've been hoping the RAF will do the same. On the other hand, I believe Paveway IV and SDB would compliment each other rather well.

All of a sudden the Typhoon seems to have a solid road map in place for the next 4-5 years.

[Scorpion82]

@EEL
P1E is not a simple software upgrade, but a hardware and software upgrade.

[Giblets]

Perhaps the images of the new Radome that was spotted at Warton may have something to do with it?

[EELightning]

Thanks for the reminder, Scopion82. I should've explained in a little more detail.

Giblets, quite possibly, its rather compelling speculation that it could be since ZJ700/IPA5 is known to be the aircraft for radar trials & from what I understand ZJ700/IPA5 hasn't been airborne for quite some time, pre the photo of the aircraft shown with various pieces fitted - which was shown on here and Starstreak. However, since its been officially announced that the UK are funding for further upgrades and enhancements for their Typhoons (amonst other programmes the UK are involved in), one has to wonder if it could be the Bright Adder or the Captor-E radar? If the radar does recieve further funding that is.

~

The Royal Saudi Air Force's remaining Tranche 2 aircraft will be completed in the UK at a rate of between eight and 10 per year, and will be "future-proofed" to receive planned enhancements. Airframe modifications would enable them to carry an active electronically scanned array radar and potentially range-extending conformal fuel tanks.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-boost-371967/

Other than from Eurofighter GmbH, its been quite a while since CFTs got a mention. Nice one.

[Mildave]

Defence Secretary Balances MOD Budget

Through a series of tough but necessary decisions, combined with radical reforms of the MOD's financial processes, the £38bn black hole in the Defence Budget that the Government inherited in 2010 has now been eliminated.

Today's announcement means the MOD can now guarantee the delivery of projects for the Army, Royal Navy and Royal Air Force, including:

• 14 new Chinooks, Apache life-extension and Puma upgrade
• a programme of new armoured fighting vehicles worth around £4.5bn over ten years, and a £1bn upgrade of the Warrior armoured fighting vehicle
• the building of the two Queen Elizabeth Class aircraft carriers, the remainder of the Type 45 destroyers and the new Type 26 frigates, and the Astute Class and Successor nuclear submarines
• investment in new Wildcat helicopters, the Merlin upgrade programme and the assessment phase for Merlin marinisation
• introduction into service of the Voyager air-to-air refueller and troop transporter, the A400M air transporter and the Air Seeker surveillance aircraft
• an additional C-17 aircraft
• continued investment in Typhoon and Joint Strike Fighter
• £7bn invested in complex weapons - the smart missiles and torpedoes that give our Navy, Army and Air Force their fighting edge.

Balancing the programme means the MOD can now confirm the following projects will also be part of the core equipment programme:

• a £4bn plus investment in intelligence, surveillance, communications and reconnaissance assets across the Cipher, Solomon, Crowsnest, DCNS and Falcon projects
• the outright purchase of three offshore patrol vessels which are currently leased
• capability enhancements to the Typhoon
• a range of simulators, basing and support equipment for the new helicopters and aircraft we are introducing.

[Mildave]

Does anybody know how exactly did they eliminated that £38bn while keeping all major programs alive?

[Jackonicko]

Defence Secretary Balances MOD Budget

"......continued investment in Typhoon and Joint Strike Fighter"

My understanding is that this budget announcement is NOT good news for Typhoon, and that specific post P1EA/B/X items that we were expecting to see commitments to remain covered by this 'catch all', and are not yet necessarily funded. There is a woeful lack of detail in all of this - even in CAS's briefing note.

Does anybody know how exactly did they eliminated that £38bn while keeping all major programs alive?

Bernard Grey explained it all pretty well at the media brief on Monday, but the quick answer is: All of the cuts announced in SDSR, plus switching from F-35C to F-35B, plus personnel reductions, plus reductions in future AFVs.

And actually they eliminated more than that, as there's now £8 Bn of overhead, and £4 Bn unallocated over the ten year period.

[mrmalaya]

Jackonicko,

Are you essentially saying- "hold yer horses!" ?

They will upgrade but it might not be things like CFTs and AESA at this stage?

[Jackonicko]

P1EA and P1EB are happening. They're funded, developed, and in the case of P1EA testing is complete.

Hammond has committed to integrating Storm Shadow and Brimstone. When he made that commitment, it was assumed that would be as part of the Quadrinational programme. After Contract One it is clear that is not necessarily the case, though no timescale has been published, and it's unclear to me as to whether any funding has actually been allocated.

It is quite unclear as to what "Continued investment" and "capability enhancements to the Typhoon" actually mean, and what they cover. They could simply refer to improvements and upgrades that are already in progress - such as P1E and Strongbow. Or they could refer to items on the longer range roadmap.

There is overhead in the budget, of course, and Hammond made it clear that other priorities could be funded from additional savings.

But many of us were expecting to see clear, unequivocal commitments to Meteor, Storm Shadow, AESA and Brimstone in this budget, and such commitments were not forthcoming. I'm old enough and cynical enough to see that as being bad news - a delay at least, and certainly not the 'full steam ahead' that is needed on these core improvements.

CFTs and thrust vectoring are not core, and are only on longer term dream sheets.