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  1. #1
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    Rafale news XII

    Older threads from earlier to latest:

    Rafale news 3/4/2007
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=68250

    Rafale news part II : we go on 7/17/2007
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=72432

    Rafale news III: the return of the revenge 4/21/2008
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=80325

    He is back! He is angry! Rafale News Four! 11/13/2008
    http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=85983

    Rafale news V : 12/3/2008
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=86497

    Rafale news VI 4/15/2009
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=89966

    Rafale news VII 6/22/2009
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=91892

    Rafale News VIII - more about everybody's favourite French fighter 11/12/2009
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=95672

    Rafale news IX 12/3/2009
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=96119

    Rafale news X 9/15/2010
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...d.php?t=103455

    Rafale news XI 06/13/2011
    http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/sho...d.php?t=109702



  2. #2
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    May I wish all Rafale fans a very Happy Christmas, congratulate team Rafale on their aircraft's performance in Libya and wish you good news in Brazil in the not-too-distant future.

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    Rafale too expensive ? Welcome in bar-room talks
    Secret Defense, Dec 15

    This is the new cliche of [french] commentators, more or less informed, more or less well-intentioned. The Rafale is too expensive, so it is not selling abroad and if France buys it anyway, that's to please Mr. Dassault. Welcome in bar room talks!

    "What is it?" As Marshal Foch said.

    Yes, the Rafale is expensive. On the basis of parliamentary reports, one can estimate its price, by dividing the payments by the number of aircraft delivered in the period 2006-2011, around 116 million euros the unit.

    This price is all taxes included, it integrates the 19.6% VAT. A VAT payed by the Department of Defense, but which at the end come back in the state's pockets : for the taxpayer [ the only one that counts in the end], the net price of the Rafale should be expressed net of tax. We are therefore at a price of 94 million euros.

    A recent Senate report estimates the total cost of the Rafale program for public finances to 43.567 billion euros (taking into account inflation since 1989) and that, on the basis of a planned order of 286 aircrafts . All taxes included , it is 152 million each. The difference compared to our previous calculation is due to the fact that this price includes the development of the aircraft, now paid for the current version (F3). Remains an uncertainty in this calculation: the final number of aircraft to be built. Fewer aircraft , higher price - this is the well-known principle of economies of scale. Originally, 320 Rafale should be ordered by France. Currently, the target is 286 units, but the only thing certain is that 180 were actually ordered. And there is still no export order.

    But expensive ? does it mean too expensive? And too expensive compared to what? To the absence of a credible national defense? To the abandonment of one of the most successful industry in a country hit by deindustrialization? To less performant foreign competitors which would lead our country into a political dependence? [...]

    Overall, and it is rare enough to point out, the prices originally planned (in constant currency) were held: the court of accounts speak of a drift of 4.7%, compared to +51% for the Tigre helicopter or +29.1% for the Armoured Infantry vehicle (VBCI). As for the A400M, its price increased by 25% before the first flight ... Abroad, the Eurofighter has drifted about 70% according to the NOA, the british Court of Auditors while the U.S. F-35 is a bottomless pit. The plane is still not in service and it is risky to advance a serious price. One thing is already certain: it will be the the most expensive combat aircraft program in history! The latest available data suggest a total cost of 323 billion dollars for 2443 devices only for U.S. forces (USAF, USN, USMC). (Either 101 million euros each) - knowing that development costs have exploded by 40% and the production of 60 to 90% depending on version. There is no evidence that this wild ride is over.

    Yet countries comparable to France will buy it ... Whatever the cost. The United Kingdom, Italy, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Canada, Israel, Australia, Turkey, Singapore - and maybe soon Japan will embark on this program. Contrary to the Rafale, it is not a multi-role aircraft, but an aircraft primarily designed for ground attack. Besides all the senior Air Force plans to keep, next, an air-air interceptor not necessarily cheap either as the F-22 or the Eurofighter Typhoon ...

    Five European countries of the Atlantic Alliance will choose the American F-35: This shows that the acquisition of a combat aircraft is above all a political choice. Sometimes the price is the issue, for example in the case of Switzerland which just prefer the Swedish Gripen . The plane is cheaper but, in fact, for good reason: it is less efficient than the Rafale. Dassault propaganda? No, estimation of the Swiss pilots themselves. But Switzerland probably did not need a plane in the range of Rafale. For its air defense, it has excellent F-18 and he had to replace only its old F-5 ... a light fighter of the generation of Mirage III.

    The Rafale is certainly an excellent plane - probably the best ever produced by our aviation industry in a century of existence. The hundred of aircraft delivered to date (104 exactly, 4 were lost and 10 of the first standard are mothballed in the Navy) can get to an accurate picture. The Rafale has been involved in two wars (Afghanistan and Libya) and ensures daily air defense missions (permanent Security Posture) and nuclear deterrence. Its versatility is its strength: it can carry out missions of air-air interception, reconnaissance, ground attack and strategic strikes, from the ground or from an aircraft carrier. The only comparable aircraft in the world is the F-18 E/F.

    There is, in our country, a true national masochism, to denigrate our success .. It's strange. Would we prefer to be on the side of the Eurofighter ?, a plane that costs more money to the taxpayers in the concerned countries and which is struggling to be truly operational, as the British saw in Libya (and never seen in Afghanistan .. .)? Would we prefer to buy F-35 at a completely unpredictable costs of acquisition and ownership , with the guarantee to never access the source code of the aircraft and to be always dependant of Washington (think to the Franco-American crisis in 2003)?
    [...]
    http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretde...rce-_a452.html
    Last edited by eagle1; 17th December 2011 at 17:32.

  4. #4
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    interview :

    Interview: C Edelstenne CEO of Dassault Aviation
    Le Figaro , Dec 12

    [...]
    [About cost]
    Despite repeated criticism about its financial weight, the Rafale is the only program of this magnitude whose costs were controlled by a constant effort of the DGA and industry, despite a delay of ten years because of constraints on our public finances. In this regard, I recently read an article mentioning a slightly increase in the cost of the program when it was only a cost update in the economic value of the year. All these elements must be handled carefully to not mislead readers into error. According to the Ministry of Defence, the Rafale has remained in its original blueprint, the price range increasing only by 4.7%, while its competitors have experienced uncontrolled excesses of their costs. The British Court of Auditors, the NAO, denounced the years drift of 75% of the European EF-2000. For those who still have regrets about leaving the France of this program, it should be understood that such a choice would have increased by nearly 50% the cost to the taxpayer in relation to the Rafale. The US F-35, meanwhile, under the control of Congress for a drift of more than 77% of its costs since its launch in 2002. And development is not finished: this program is qualified besides on the other side of the Atlantic the “trillion programs “.
    [...]
    [About exports]
    Given the operational quality of the aircraft, the commitment of the staff of our company, you will understand that my impatience to export the Rafale could be even greater than the one of the press!
    [...]Just for UAE, more than 100 people from Dassault Aviation, and I do not count those of our co-operators Thales and Snecma, are mobilized in the Rafale negotiations for over two years. Do you think I would spend so much energy just to make up the numbers if I was not convinced?

    The effects of style about the exportability of the Rafale are ridiculous. What are we talking about? First, it's international competition where our main competitors are American and have a mechanical bonus of competitiveness of 40% thanks the euro-dollar parity. Second, sales of combat aircraft, because they touch the heart of state sovereignty, are primarily sales where the political dimension is crucial. The United States put their political weight in the balance to prevent the export of the Rafale. They know they would mortgage the future of this industry in France and Europe. They would gain a double monopoly, military of course, but also technologic as aeronautics irrigates, the technologies it develops, entire sectors of the economy.
    [...]
    I also note that the press reports judicial probe in connection with sales of some of our competitors, these probe have sometimes been stopped by local authorities themselves [he's talking of Blair about Saudi Arabia] . I want to make a point of recalling that our company, which operates in the whole world, obeys the law voted by the elected representatives of our nation.

    The traditional market of French combat aircraft consists of countries that do not want to buy American aircraft or countries which want a double source. Competitions were held in South Korea, Singapore and the Netherlands. In these countries, the air forces are now only equipped with American planes. These countries have always had very close ties with the United States, for geostrategic reasons with respect to Korea or Singapore. For reasons of comfort in the Netherlands, a founding member of the European Union, but a fierce supporter of the American preference for what is their combat aviation, remember the market of the century! We may have erred in taking part in these early competitions, where our chances were, from the start, rather limited. But if we did not, nobody would have understood. Each time, we eliminated the EF2000 and we ended up in short list against American planes.
    [...]
    [About prospects]
    The 3 most advanced prospects are UAE, India and Brazil. Let's start with the UAE. Since 2008 we are in negotiations with that country. The UAE is a client partner who has always called upon to do better. Negotiations are continuing and the company is working to develop local partnerships which should strengthen the strategic relationship between our two countries on the basis of an industrial and technological cooperation extended around the Rafale.
    In India, we are in the final stages against the EF2000 of EADS. I will not comment on those negotiations, but I want to emphasize the interest of Dassault Aviation for this historic customer of the French combat aviation. We are committed to addressing the concerns of independence and sovereignty of the Indians, which want to build an industrial base already very efficient.
    Finally, in Brazil, the voluntarism of the French president has allowed the Rafale to be considered at the highest level by the Brazilian authorities. President Rousseff decided to freeze the procurement process in light of the global economic situation. We expect the resume of the competition for 2012. We do of course not remain inactive and we again, because this is the ambition of the Brazilian authorities, multiplied agreements and technology partnerships with universities and industry to ensure our Brazilian officials we will fully transfer the know-how and technologies that will ensure Brazil's sovereignty over its air force.
    [...]
    [About Switzerland]
    The Swiss military authorities, through a rigorous process of evaluation, have acclaimed the Rafale for the adequacy of its performance taking into consideration their operational need. Moreover, the report published in the Swiss press emphasizes the preeminence of the Rafale over its two competitors. The Federal Council has announced the choice of the Gripen NG, the lowest ranked of the three planes in the running. But the choice of a fighter is always a political choice which also takes into account the quality of bilateral relations. And these, you know, are not looking good right now ...
    [...]
    Last edited by eagle1; 17th December 2011 at 17:29.

  5. #5
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    French air force chief confident of Rafale victory in Indian contest

    Gen Jean-Paul Paloméros, chief of staff of the French air force, is confident about the Dassault Rafale's prospects in major international competitions, and partially attributes the aircraft's previous losses in Singapore and South Korea to politics.

    "I've flown in the Rafale and I know what it can do," said Paloméros, speaking to Flightglobal at the Langkawi International Maritime and Aerospace exhibition in Malaysia late last month. "Rafale was designed since conception as a multi-role aircraft," he added.

    According to Paloméros, the Rafale is well suited to handle emerging air-to-air and air-to-ground threats in the Asia-Pacific region.

    "The Rafale has very high manoueverability," he said. "It will be getting an AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar and it has good weapons. It will also receive the MBDA Meteor air-to-air missile, offering extra range against any types of threats."

    The AESA version of the Thales RBE2 radar will be introduced into Rafale in 2013, when French forces begin receiving the fourth block of production aircraft. The Meteor is still undergoing development, but should be deployed on the Rafale after the middle of the decade.

    Paloméros is confident the Rafale will emerge triumphant in India's medium multi-role combat aircraft competition for 126 fighters, where it is on a shortlist with the Eurofighter Typhoon. Indian media reports suggest the decision is imminent, possibly before the end of 2011.

    "The Indians are working on their decision," he said. "We have close contacts with India owing to the [Dassault] Mirage 2000. They are more than happy, and are upgrading these aircraft. They know French industry very well. I'm confident in this competition. They are real experts and did a great job evaluating the aircraft."

    He added the Rafale is also well suited for Malaysia's 18-aircraft multi-role combat aircraft competition. A Royal Malaysian Air Force team visited France this year to conduct flight trials in the type. Paloméros said although the weather was "horrible", the visitors liked the aircraft and gained the opportunity to work with Rafale in challenging conditions.

    As for the design's failure so far to win a foreign buyer, Paloméros said: "In Singapore the Rafale was in the final selection against the Boeing F-15, as was the case in South Korea's F-X I competition. The F-15 was a good choice for both countries, but its selection had a lot to do with politics as well."

    He said the French air force is working hard to help pin down a Rafale sale in the United Arab Emirates, which recently stunned the defence aerospace industry by issuing a request for a proposal linked to the Eurofighter Typhoon and also spoke with Boeing and Lockheed Martin. The UAE has a long-running requirement to replace 60 Mirage 2000-9s.

    "We are working very hard with the UAE. They have participated in operations over Libya alongside Rafale and they know what they want. In terms of capabilities, we are in the same room. As for negotiations, we'll see."
    http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...ontest-366102/

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    ROUSSEFF favors France to build defense industry
    Terra Noticias, Dec 15

    The Brazilian president, Dilma Rousseff, favored the strategic relationship with France to build "a true national defense industry" in Brazil, during his meeting today in Brasilia with Prime Minister Francois Fillon, who indicated his dispositión to close The association agreement between Mercosur and the European Union.

    Fillon arrived yesterday in Brazil for a three-day visit with an entourage of 40 officials and businessmen and was received today by Rousseff at the Planalto Palace, where they discussed an agenda referred almost exclusively to the strategic partnership between the two countries in Defence Based on the agreement signed in 2009 for the purchase and sale of weapons by $ 12.3 million.

    "The area of ​​defense is one of the pillars of our strategic partnership, a project of great importance for the future of our countries," said the Brazilian president, at the end of the meeting of about an hour with Fillon, said the agency DPA news.

    The president stressed that his government aims to "build a true national defense industry in Brazil and partnerships with France in all sectors, should be subject to this goal."

    Thus, Rousseff winked at France, as did his predecessor, Luiz Lula Da Silva, during a visit by French President Nicolas Sarkozy, to realize several operations to renew military equipment.

    These operations are open bidding for the purchase of 36 fighter jets for the Brazilian Air Force, in which the Dassault Rafale of France are among the three finalists, along with two other companies in Sweden and the United States.
    [...]
    http://noticias.terra.com.ar/interna...154d0RCRD.html

  7. #7
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    If you read the interview with the CEO of Dassault, the problem of Dassault becomes obvious imho. It is never their fault and they never lose in a fair competition. Even if we see that the reasoning in Switzerland was quite logical, based on the need to replace the F-5 and the given budget. Rafale was the best plane, but the actual winner was good enough and leaves Switzerland with a billion bucks to spend on other purchases for its armed forces. If that is not a reasonable decision by Switzerland, then what is? Yet Dassault again thinks it was a political decision based on differences between Switzerland and France.
    Dassault and the French press have developed a nasty habit of badmouthing interested buyers, when they lose a contract. I bet we will quickly learn a lot about bribes in India from the sources close to Dassault, should Typhoon be selected. Such behaviour ihmo will surely **** off interested buyers.
    Member of ACIG

    an unnamed Luftwaffe officer:"Typhoon is a warm weather plane. If you want to be operational at -20°C you have to deploy the F-4F."

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    Quote Originally Posted by seahawk View Post
    If you read the interview with the CEO of Dassault, the problem of Dassault becomes obvious imho. It is never their fault and they never lose in a fair competition. Even if we see that the reasoning in Switzerland was quite logical, based on the need to replace the F-5 and the given budget. Rafale was the best plane, but the actual winner was good enough and leaves Switzerland with a billion bucks to spend on other purchases for its armed forces. If that is not a reasonable decision by Switzerland, then what is? Yet Dassault again thinks it was a political decision based on differences between Switzerland and France.
    I don't get your point.
    So, what was the best thing for Dassault to say ?

    We know that buying fighters has a huge political dimension, why do you try to dodge that part ?

    Quote Originally Posted by seahawk View Post
    Dassault and the French press have developed a nasty habit of badmouthing interested buyers, when they lose a contract. I bet we will quickly learn a lot about bribes in India from the sources close to Dassault, should Typhoon be selected. Such behaviour ihmo will surely **** off interested buyers.
    If we look at the past, specially what happen in Korea, don't you think your sentence should be "Dassault and the French press have developed a nasty habit of saying the truth" ?

    BTW, who is talking of the french press here ?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sign View Post
    its kind of obivios that Gripen is more cost-effective and therefore a 3,3 billion USD Gripen force is more effective than a 3,3 billion USD Rafale force. Or 22 Gripen is better force than about 11 Rafale.
    This is allways depending on requirements, but often in evaluations you hear that all contenders pass the technical eval.
    Here again, what is your point ?

  9. #9
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    As always, french complacency. Gripen "less efficiant", per what? per force? plane vs. plane? per cost?
    its kind of obivios that Gripen is more cost-effective and therefore a 3,3 billion USD Gripen force is more effective than a 3,3 billion USD Rafale force. Or 22 Gripen is better force than about 11 Rafale.
    This is allways depending on requirements, but often in evaluations you hear that all contenders pass the technical eval.
    Last edited by Sign; 17th December 2011 at 11:17.

  10. #10
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    Swiss air force very clearly recommended the rafale as the best option. The better performance allowed to do more with the rafale with less aircrafts than with the gripen. It is the swiss operational evaluation itself that came to that conclusion.

    If the gripen was considered more efficient within the same budget swiss air force would have recommended it.

    Swiss politics decided to look at the price argument only without looking at the overall operational effectiveness.
    Last edited by eagle1; 17th December 2011 at 12:48.

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle1 View Post
    Swiss politics decided to look at the price argument only without looking at the overall operational effectiveness.
    No, they looked at both.

    Question: Is the Rafale ~25% better than the Gripen? (4.something billion vs. 3.something billion)

    Question: When is the last time the Swiss air force used its aircraft in anger?



    They made the blindingly obvious and correct decision in going with Gripen ahead of Rafale.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle1 View Post
    Swiss air force very clearly recommended the rafale as the best option. The better performance allowed to do more with the rafale with less aircrafts than with the gripen. It is the swiss operational evaluation itself that came to that conclusion.

    If the gripen was considered more efficient within the same budget swiss air force would have recommended it.

    Swiss politics decided to look at the price argument only without looking at the overall operational effectiveness.
    Swiss politics looked at the needs of the state budget and the whole Swiss Armed Forces, not just the Air Force. And the leaves them with 25% money saved to spent on the needs of the army or save within the budget.

    Apart from that from a certain number of airframes on, the "do more with less" argument simply fails.

    Say you want:

    3 CAPs with 2 planes at ready 15
    and 6 planes available for daily training missions

    12 planes won´t cut that, 16 might do.
    Member of ACIG

    an unnamed Luftwaffe officer:"Typhoon is a warm weather plane. If you want to be operational at -20°C you have to deploy the F-4F."

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackonicko View Post
    May I wish all Rafale fans a very Happy Christmas, congratulate team Rafale on their aircraft's performance in Libya and wish you good news in Brazil in the not-too-distant future.
    I'd like to second that.

    An I'd also like to wish them luck in India, not quite as much luck as Typhoon, but a very close second would be terrific.


    Merry Xmas
    John Cook
    Any spelling mistakes/grammatic errors are there purely to annoy. All opinions are mine, not TAFE's however much they beg me for them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jwcook View Post
    but a very close second would be terrific.


    Merry Xmas
    LoL

    Thank you both.

    Merry Christmas to you, too (yes, both of you).
    Last edited by TMor; 16th December 2011 at 20:24.
    Rafale news blog by Kovy :
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