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Thread: Gripen for Switzerland

  1. #121
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppp View Post
    @TigerII
    Actually what swerve said is not nonsense at all. Whilst the UK could certainly attempt to block the deal, that's not what was actually said. What was said was that Argentina would be very unlikely to procure Gripen because it has a very high British content. It's difficult to think of a country that would be worse for Argentina to get a component like it's primary fighter radar from than the UK.
    I suppose SAAB could produce a non UK TOT Gripen variant for Argentina...Israeli Radar etc...

    I think Argentina would be better off going for Super Hornet as it allows them to do a radical fleet modernisation replacing the Mirage III, V, Skyhawk and Super Etendard with their Fleet Air Arm.
    A future lost through a lack of vision!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTM4v...eature=related

  2. #122
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giblets View Post
    Also, after the UAE debacle, does anyone else think that Dassault stating the Swiss "knowingly decided not to put Switzerland at the highest level in Europe as regards the performance of its new combat aircraft." is a little ...undiplomatic?
    That was actually very diplomatic for Dassault standards.

    After the Rafale lost out to a weaker F-15 in South Korea, Serge Dassault decided to never do business in the country again, and closed down all the South Korean Dassault subsidiaries.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    But there was an earlier report (saw this in a post on the Rafale thread) that stated that Saab was offering new build Gripen C/Ds to the Swiss, which were to be then converted to NG standard by RUAG, without the F-414G, additional internal fuel or the larger wings and inlets of the NG. Mainly the avionics and radar of the NG would be added to the Swiss variants. So, in some respects, the Swiss Gripen E/Fs would not have the kinematic performance and the higher internal fuel of the true Gripen NG.

    Is this true anymore, or will the Swiss get the actual Gripen E/F with F-414G and all the structural changes that the Gripen NG will have? If Saab has gone slow on developing the NG to allow work to remain for Embraer (as reported on Ares blog) then how will this Swiss win affect that?
    The deal is about Gripen E/Fs. The idea to upgrade C/Ds in Switzerland with E/F avionics but without airframe and engine mods has been rejected. And rightly so, because a 22 airframe subvariant doesn't make sense.

    Whats the deal with the larger wing? AFAIK, wing area remains unchanged.


    Quote Originally Posted by BlackArcher View Post
    When are these jets supposed to enter service for the Swiss Air Force?
    2015
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  4. #124
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slenke View Post
    Are weapons included in the deal or will the Swiss use their weapons?
    Weapons aren't included, but wouldn't come from Sweden anyway. Swiss Air Force uses AIM-120, C-7 and B versions I think, and AIM-9X. AMRAAM is already integrated on the Gripen.

    Does anyone know if the Sidewinder X is integrated?
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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  5. #125
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    It isn't integrated as far as I know but it uses the same rail launcher as AIM-9L/M, ASRAAM and IRIS-T.

    Integration should be a minor issue but it might be easier to use their earlier Sidewinder stocks or purchase IRIS-T or ASRAAM. Of course AMRAAM is a non issue as it can fire their already purchased stocks. To be honest I doubt a future METEOR purchase, considering their geography even AMRAAM is overkill.

    On a side note in theory ASRAAM can be launched from any aircraft wired for Sidewinder without integration. The missile has a Sidewinder mode that allows it to be fired from any aircraft that can fire legacy winder. Rather clever...
    A future lost through a lack of vision!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTM4v...eature=related

  6. #126
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giblets View Post
    Has anyone been able to locate the graph, or the report about the presentation anywhere but on the Rafale News Blogspot? They refer to Bazonline.ch however, I, and several others seem to be unable to locate it on their site. Can anyone supply the link?
    It was in their nov. 30 issue
    http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/baz.pdf
    The Rafale international forum :
    http://rafale.freeforums.org/

    Rafale news blog :
    http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/

  7. #127
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    "For that, no need of an evaluation of 8 millions francs"

    Basler Zeitung, Nov 30

    SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter is not happy about the decision for the Gripen. For him it is not clear why the Federal Council has decided for this fighter.

    With the justification provided by Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer , SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter said he would not approve the purchase. This was the price, the cooperation and effectiveness of the aircraft mentioned as criteria. The last two items fulfill all types. “I assume the fact the principal reason for the decision is the price”, said Hurter. "There would have needed no evaluation for 8 million francs, "which one could look in the catalog."
    In addition, the Gripen exist only on paper. That meant that Switzerland also participate in the development costs. "That's what we didn't want to avoid the future risk," said Hurter.
    [...]
    Also Hurter does not exclude the fact that no matter the Federal Council has decided for Gripen, the new jet could be shoot in the parliament. The government decides for an aircraft, which exists only on the paper. Besides it considers the results of the evaluation only insufficiently. “"You have to ask yourself how serious this is."
    http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...ossier_id=1071
    Last edited by eagle1; 1st December 2011 at 20:17.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    Considering the Swiss have no plans to invade anybody a twin engine long range type seems less then logical. Gripen E/F (NG avionics) has plenty of plus points that I'm surprised Fernand Carrel hasn't acknowledged them:

    Firstly: Gripen in any form will be a quantum leap in performance and capability over the F-5. Actually it will be a significant capability jump from the Hornet for that matter!

    Secondly: It will have a superior BVR capabilty even if they don't purchase METEOR. The AESA repositioner radar, AMRAAM and newer generation avionics will be significantly better then the Hornet AN/APG-73 combo.
    Don't know if it will be significantly better, Swiss Hornets are very capable A-A birds, but AESA ensures Gripen will be no slouch.
    From "leaked reports", or is it propaganda , people seem to have the idea that Gripen is a substandard jet, when in fact, it is very good. It's just slightly inferior compared to Rafale/Typhoon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fedaykin View Post
    Thirdly: The maintenance model built around the Swedish situation of conscript maintenance personel actually fits nicely into the Swiss situation as well.

    Fourthly: The engine in the Gripen is an evolution of that fitted to their current Hornet fleet reducing the training burden even further on their maintenance personel.
    Yes, but I'm not sure if there are actually any conscripts doing maintenance on jets today, or if there will be with the Gripen.
    Militia pilots will go, at least that was the plan.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Piff View Post
    That was actually very diplomatic for Dassault standards.

    After the Rafale lost out to a weaker F-15 in South Korea, Serge Dassault decided to never do business in the country again, and closed down all the South Korean Dassault subsidiaries.
    Well it might be weaker but god would I love a ride in the South Korean F-15, GE-F110 and state of the art avionics plus two seats makes her a hot ship!
    A future lost through a lack of vision!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTM4v...eature=related

  10. #130
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    From DSI

    Rafale in Switzerland, why it gets stuck
    DSI , dec 1

    The failure of the Rafale in Switzerland raises many questions. I talked to Joseph Henrotin, revered editor of DSI and expert on air strategy and, more generally, the relationship between technology and strategy.Rafale crashed in Switzerland. Clearly, Rafale beat its competitors in the evaluation, but was not cheap . The price determines everything ?

    [...] Indeed, technically speaking, the aircraft was ahead of its competitors and in general, the Rafale is an excellent fighter. [...] But the technical merit is not all. The price factor is also involved, especially when the Western states, including Switzerland, are through an unprecedented crisis.

    In a context where Switzerland has no enemies on its borders, It could be difficult to politically legitimate and justify considerable costs in the eyes of the population, even certainly committed to the spirit of defense (probably more than anywhere else in Western Europe) . Moreover, the structure of these costs is not yet known: certainly, there is the one of the purchase. But there are the rest (MCO, ammunition, packages offered, the implications of local industries, etc..) And, at present we do not know much about the offer and its overall costs. But perhaps the Swedes are very strong in this game.

    Other factors also come into play. The Rafale would replace the F-5. In the Swiss doctrine, the Tiger must be "dispersible" and able to operate from RHA (road sections used as emergency airfields). The aircraft [Gripen] is versatile and lightweight - it meets the spirit of technological and strategic cultures in Switzerland. Comparatively, the Rafale is certainly versatile, but is neither heavy nor light . Also some members of the Swiss Army saw the aircraft as belonging to an "overkill" for too many missions to complete.

    There remains the question of marking policy, too. The Rafale is the aircraft of the war in Libya. From what I know of some Swiss "decisionmakers" sees the aircraft as very "offensive". I do not think, given the discussions I had with the Swiss military, that this feeling has been shared by them. By cons, it could be the case with some decisionmakers ... At this stage it is in any case too early to draw any lessons from this case.

    In fact. Rafale has difficultiles like the French industry, in general, with the sentence: we are of course the fourth exporter in the world, but far from the first three and a fifth on our heels. Do we have a problem?

    From a technical point of view, no, our equipment is good - although sometimes they are so good and they are too expensive. However, this remark does not apply in the field of combat aircraft, rather in the field of ammunition.

    Ok. Why it gets stuck then?

    [...]the issue is very complex. That said, I will give some tips to a hypothetical graduate student.

    - First, we consider our exports with the eye of the engineer: for us the case is first technical, while technic has only a minor role in purchase decisions of equipment. We are not on the same level as the customer.

    - Two, exporting is a trade issue. You have to be agile, lightweight, fast, imaginative and lethal to competitors. Whatever the field, it is the only business formula that works. But I feel that we're not.
    Just an anecdote, but it seems to me very indicative. At DSI, from time to time , we interview industrialists. It can be important because it could allow a military or political customer, to understand the motivations, the foundations, the possibilities of a project outside of direct channels of communication specific to negotiations. But this year I had eight refusals from French companies [..] . I do not give names, I accuse no one, I'm just trying to understand. But in six years of publications, I have never had a refusal or delay by a foreign manufacturer ...

    - Three, exporting armament is a military matter and strategic studies are not an intellectual luxury. How do you sell something to someone if you do not know his intellectual references, its strategic culture or, more basically still, his habits of negotiation? Yet it is the royal road to "customer oriented".
    Last edited by eagle1; 1st December 2011 at 19:59.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    Weapons aren't included, but wouldn't come from Sweden anyway. Swiss Air Force uses AIM-120, C-7 and B versions I think, and AIM-9X. AMRAAM is already integrated on the Gripen.

    Does anyone know if the Sidewinder X is integrated?
    http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4547991

    The weapon integration programs will allow the Gripen to carry a greater range of missile systems, including the Python, IRIS-T, AIM-9X Sidewinder, R-Darter, Meteor, A-Darter, Derby, AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AIM-9 air-to-air missiles.
    the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
    -Robert L Shaw

  12. #132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Piff View Post
    First I would like to congratulate my sweedish friends with another sale Great airplane, no doubt abouut it.

    What I find interesting are the pr.unit prices.
    Rafale the most expensive at 150 m dollars
    EF at 100 m
    and Gripen at between 50 and 60 m.

    Seems like Eurofigher are selling at loss while Dassault refuse to give anybody any discount. For that price Gripen looks like a great choice.
    Switzerland has a very small air space to defend..Gripen will do the job.
    Both Rafale and Typhoon are overqualified.

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    Don't know if it will be significantly better, Swiss Hornets are very capable A-A birds, but AESA ensures Gripen will be no slouch.
    From "leaked reports", or is it propaganda , people seem to have the idea that Gripen is a substandard jet, when in fact, it is very good. It's just slightly inferior compared to Rafale/Typhoon.



    Yes, but I'm not sure if there are actually any conscripts doing maintenance on jets today, or if there will be with the Gripen.
    Militia pilots will go, at least that was the plan.
    Yeah I agree I was stretching it with the conscript maintenance model but the engine point is utterly fair. They already maintain the GE-F404, the GE-F414 being an evolution will be easier on their maintenance crews.
    A future lost through a lack of vision!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uTM4v...eature=related

  14. #134
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    Quote Originally Posted by kirtap View Post
    Nice. However, seems to be quite a bit of work left before a deal is signed, including a possible public referendum. Ergo => still chanche for Rafale and others to a secure deal.
    No, it's either Gripen or nothing.
    A referendum or initiative won't be about the choice, but the needs for new fighters is questioned in general.


    Quote Originally Posted by kirtap View Post
    Wonder if it will include the RCS reduction measures proposed for Gripen E/F (Redesigned air intakes etc.)
    E/F has redesigned intakes to ensure higher airflow but they look very similar, see pic. Not sure if the upgrade includes any mods to reduce RCS?
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  15. #135
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    Quote Originally Posted by uss novice View Post
    Gripen and Tiffy might have come out with a disadvantage vs. Swiss Hornets for the foll reasons:

    Less emphasis on BVR and more on WVR. The SwAF Hornets are equipped with the JHMCS/Aim 9X combo and can carry the ATFLIR as well. The hornet's low-slo w ability is supposedly v.v.good. Ditto with the Rafale.

    As a result F-18> Gripen (even NG) is not hard to fathom.

    Or maybe the Tiffy beat the Hornet in BVR easily enough, however, only equalled it in WVR, this would explain its marginal gain vs. the Hornet in the published chart. And perhaps the Gripen equalled it in BVR but lost out comprehensively in WVR?

    Otoh, the Rafale is supposedly a demon low-slow and with the RBE 2 should be v.competitive BVR as well. Might've beaten the F-18 comprehensively in all scenarios?

    Just some thoughts.

    USS.
    Interesting -- however what's also interesting is that the Rafale did not just beat the Hornet and the Gripen but also the Typhoon in the Swiss a2a scenarios.

    The French always claimed they did not see the great need for HMD -- perhaps their system actually works surprisingly well without? Or is it something else that makes the Rafale perform so surprisingly well?

    The chart talks about defensive and offensive a2a -- what could they mean by that?

  16. #136
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    The deal is about Gripen E/Fs. The idea to upgrade C/Ds in Switzerland with E/F avionics but without airframe and engine mods has been rejected.
    Do you have a source?

    Whats the deal with the larger wing? AFAIK, wing area remains unchanged.
    The Gripen NG has a slightly larger wing than the C/D.

  17. #137
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    Do we know that for a fact? AFAIK the second evaluation was from 2009, I am not at all sure that Saab offered NG to Switzerland at that time, but I may be wrong. Note that also Rafale and Typhoon were offered in improved versions in 2009.
    No, we don't! For all we know, the newspaper could have pulled those numbers from a very dark space Those graphs are just rumours from allegedly leaked reports. But officially, the Gripen met the requirements, any details are classified. End of story.

    So I would take all those nice stories, esp. from French speaking parts of Switzerland, with a load of salt. I think its a mixture of clever PR and some disappointed souls.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    E/F has redesigned intakes to ensure higher airflow but they look very similar, see pic. Not sure if the upgrade includes any mods to reduce RCS?
    Those intakes are from the Gripen Demo, which is a rebuilt Gripen D.

    The intakes for the NG may look different than the intakes on the Demo.

  19. #139
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    Do you have a source?
    See the first post, you said it yourself the deal is about the E/F, not some interim version.
    If you're thinking about doing the assembly in Switzerland, or contribute some parts to the upgrade, thats possible and probably will happen due to offsets. But the end result will be a standard Gripen E/F.
    Unless of course people go crazy during negotiations.


    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post
    The Gripen NG has a slightly larger wing than the C/D.
    Didn't know that. Do you have any details? The specs say wing span remains at 8.4m, and "Some structural changes have been made to the wing, but its fundamental design remains unchanged."
    At least thats what it says in Gripen News 23 April 2008. Are there newer specs?

    Also, do you happen to know if its possible to carry 3 500kg LGBs on the centerline? 3 dumb bombs seems to be possible.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    Whats the deal with the larger wing? AFAIK, wing area remains unchanged.
    The Gripen NG will have a 10 cm longer fuselage, and a 20 cm wider wingspan. I'm guessing the inner chord has been increased by 10 cm thanks to the elongated fuselage.

  21. #141
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    How do I feel about the Swedes selling the Swiss a fighter?

    Neutral.
    There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.

  22. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by LowObservable View Post
    Clarification - Carrel is a former SwAF boss.
    Important difference, note also he regretted the choice on Radio Suisse Romande i.e. a French speaking radio.
    All the fuss about leaked data, Gripen not being good enough and Rafale is the only way to go is slightly curious to say the least. But I mentioned that already.
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
    Yngwie Malmsteen

  23. #143
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    How do I feel about the Swedes selling the Swiss a fighter?

    Neutral.
    lol
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  24. #144
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loke View Post

    The intakes for the NG may look different than the intakes on the Demo.
    From what I've heard the Gripen NG will receive divertless intakes. The Gripen DEMO is undergoing modifications as we speak. I'm guessing it will also receive the new larger wing.

    Below is just my personal fantasy. But perhaps the intake wont be too far off?


  25. #145
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    Quote Originally Posted by robban View Post
    The Gripen NG will have a 10 cm longer fuselage, and a 20 cm wider wingspan. I'm guessing the inner chord has been increased by 10 cm thanks to the elongated fuselage.
    Gripen NG is a demonstrator, that doesn't mean the Gripen E/F will be anything like it...
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

  26. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by Giblets View Post
    I am a bit confused by the various reports (from the Basler Zeitung), clearly at the beginning, the Swiss said all three aircraft passed the benchmark ( of the F-18).

    This report, from which the graph supposedly comes from clearly shows that the Gripen did not meet it at either stage. The 'confidential report' also also states the Rafale was the only aircraft the pass the benchmark (this refuted by it's own figures which shows the Typhoon also passed)
    The newspaper reports are not official. Officially, they all passed the benchmark.

    Quote Originally Posted by Giblets View Post
    Never mind the Typhoon being as good as the hornet in a2a in 2008, apparently it was for a2g too!
    Well, thats not too far off I think. A-G is a no brainer even today. And in A-A, the Swiss Hornet is very capable with C-7 AMRAAM, AIM-X, HMCS and Super Hornet FCS.
    Electronic gizmos (ECM, RWR, IFF) apparently are on par with US systems, at least since the latest upgrade started in 2008.


    Quote Originally Posted by Giblets View Post
    Also, after the UAE debacle, does anyone else think that Dassault stating the Swiss "knowingly decided not to put Switzerland at the highest level in Europe as regards the performance of its new combat aircraft." is a little ...undiplomatic?
    You'd think so, but actually thats what Ueli Maurer (defence minister) said himself
    How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
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  27. #147
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mildave View Post
    Gripen NG is a demonstrator, that doesn't mean the Gripen E/F will be anything like it...
    The Gripen DEMO is the demonstrator. The Gripen NG, or the E/F version or whatever it's called is the end result,, AFAIK.

  28. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Piff View Post
    That was actually very diplomatic for Dassault standards.

    After the Rafale lost out to a weaker F-15 in South Korea, Serge Dassault decided to never do business in the country again, and closed down all the South Korean Dassault subsidiaries.
    Weaker? good joke.

  29. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by eagle View Post
    Weapons aren't included, but wouldn't come from Sweden anyway. Swiss Air Force uses AIM-120, C-7 and B versions I think, and AIM-9X. AMRAAM is already integrated on the Gripen.

    Does anyone know if the Sidewinder X is integrated?
    Gripen use AIM-9M and IRIS-T, not sure about AIM-9X.

  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by robban View Post
    The Gripen DEMO is the demonstrator. The Gripen NG, or the E/F version or whatever it's called is the end result,, AFAIK.
    Gripen NG is the concept. The Gripen DEMO is a Gripen C/D modified to test the feasibility of the concept. Gripen E/F is the end result, the one that is going to be commercialize.
    “Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”

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