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I suppose SAAB could produce a non UK TOT Gripen variant for Argentina...Israeli Radar etc...
I think Argentina would be better off going for Super Hornet as it allows them to do a radical fleet modernisation replacing the Mirage III, V, Skyhawk and Super Etendard with their Fleet Air Arm.
The deal is about Gripen E/Fs. The idea to upgrade C/Ds in Switzerland with E/F avionics but without airframe and engine mods has been rejected. And rightly so, because a 22 airframe subvariant doesn't make sense.
Whats the deal with the larger wing? AFAIK, wing area remains unchanged.
2015
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
It isn't integrated as far as I know but it uses the same rail launcher as AIM-9L/M, ASRAAM and IRIS-T.
Integration should be a minor issue but it might be easier to use their earlier Sidewinder stocks or purchase IRIS-T or ASRAAM. Of course AMRAAM is a non issue as it can fire their already purchased stocks. To be honest I doubt a future METEOR purchase, considering their geography even AMRAAM is overkill.
On a side note in theory ASRAAM can be launched from any aircraft wired for Sidewinder without integration. The missile has a Sidewinder mode that allows it to be fired from any aircraft that can fire legacy winder. Rather clever...
It was in their nov. 30 issue
http://kovy.free.fr/temp/rafale/pdf/baz.pdf
The Rafale international forum :
http://rafale.freeforums.org/
Rafale news blog :
http://rafalenews.blogspot.com/
http://bazonline.ch/schweiz/standard...ossier_id=1071"For that, no need of an evaluation of 8 millions francs"
Basler Zeitung, Nov 30
SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter is not happy about the decision for the Gripen. For him it is not clear why the Federal Council has decided for this fighter.
With the justification provided by Federal Councillor Ueli Maurer , SVP National Counsellor and Military Pilot Thomas Hurter said he would not approve the purchase. This was the price, the cooperation and effectiveness of the aircraft mentioned as criteria. The last two items fulfill all types. “I assume the fact the principal reason for the decision is the price”, said Hurter. "There would have needed no evaluation for 8 million francs, "which one could look in the catalog."
In addition, the Gripen exist only on paper. That meant that Switzerland also participate in the development costs. "That's what we didn't want to avoid the future risk," said Hurter.
[...]
Also Hurter does not exclude the fact that no matter the Federal Council has decided for Gripen, the new jet could be shoot in the parliament. The government decides for an aircraft, which exists only on the paper. Besides it considers the results of the evaluation only insufficiently. “"You have to ask yourself how serious this is."
Last edited by eagle1; 1st December 2011 at 20:17.
Don't know if it will be significantly better, Swiss Hornets are very capable A-A birds, but AESA ensures Gripen will be no slouch.
From "leaked reports", or is it propaganda, people seem to have the idea that Gripen is a substandard jet, when in fact, it is very good. It's just slightly inferior compared to Rafale/Typhoon.
Yes, but I'm not sure if there are actually any conscripts doing maintenance on jets today, or if there will be with the Gripen.
Militia pilots will go, at least that was the plan.
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
From DSI
Rafale in Switzerland, why it gets stuck
DSI , dec 1
The failure of the Rafale in Switzerland raises many questions. I talked to Joseph Henrotin, revered editor of DSI and expert on air strategy and, more generally, the relationship between technology and strategy.Rafale crashed in Switzerland. Clearly, Rafale beat its competitors in the evaluation, but was not cheap . The price determines everything ?
[...] Indeed, technically speaking, the aircraft was ahead of its competitors and in general, the Rafale is an excellent fighter. [...] But the technical merit is not all. The price factor is also involved, especially when the Western states, including Switzerland, are through an unprecedented crisis.
In a context where Switzerland has no enemies on its borders, It could be difficult to politically legitimate and justify considerable costs in the eyes of the population, even certainly committed to the spirit of defense (probably more than anywhere else in Western Europe) . Moreover, the structure of these costs is not yet known: certainly, there is the one of the purchase. But there are the rest (MCO, ammunition, packages offered, the implications of local industries, etc..) And, at present we do not know much about the offer and its overall costs. But perhaps the Swedes are very strong in this game.
Other factors also come into play. The Rafale would replace the F-5. In the Swiss doctrine, the Tiger must be "dispersible" and able to operate from RHA (road sections used as emergency airfields). The aircraft [Gripen] is versatile and lightweight - it meets the spirit of technological and strategic cultures in Switzerland. Comparatively, the Rafale is certainly versatile, but is neither heavy nor light . Also some members of the Swiss Army saw the aircraft as belonging to an "overkill" for too many missions to complete.
There remains the question of marking policy, too. The Rafale is the aircraft of the war in Libya. From what I know of some Swiss "decisionmakers" sees the aircraft as very "offensive". I do not think, given the discussions I had with the Swiss military, that this feeling has been shared by them. By cons, it could be the case with some decisionmakers ... At this stage it is in any case too early to draw any lessons from this case.
In fact. Rafale has difficultiles like the French industry, in general, with the sentence: we are of course the fourth exporter in the world, but far from the first three and a fifth on our heels. Do we have a problem?
From a technical point of view, no, our equipment is good - although sometimes they are so good and they are too expensive. However, this remark does not apply in the field of combat aircraft, rather in the field of ammunition.
Ok. Why it gets stuck then?
[...]the issue is very complex. That said, I will give some tips to a hypothetical graduate student.
- First, we consider our exports with the eye of the engineer: for us the case is first technical, while technic has only a minor role in purchase decisions of equipment. We are not on the same level as the customer.
- Two, exporting is a trade issue. You have to be agile, lightweight, fast, imaginative and lethal to competitors. Whatever the field, it is the only business formula that works. But I feel that we're not.
Just an anecdote, but it seems to me very indicative. At DSI, from time to time , we interview industrialists. It can be important because it could allow a military or political customer, to understand the motivations, the foundations, the possibilities of a project outside of direct channels of communication specific to negotiations. But this year I had eight refusals from French companies [..] . I do not give names, I accuse no one, I'm just trying to understand. But in six years of publications, I have never had a refusal or delay by a foreign manufacturer ...
- Three, exporting armament is a military matter and strategic studies are not an intellectual luxury. How do you sell something to someone if you do not know his intellectual references, its strategic culture or, more basically still, his habits of negotiation? Yet it is the royal road to "customer oriented".
Last edited by eagle1; 1st December 2011 at 19:59.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?i=4547991
The weapon integration programs will allow the Gripen to carry a greater range of missile systems, including the Python, IRIS-T, AIM-9X Sidewinder, R-Darter, Meteor, A-Darter, Derby, AIM-132 Advanced Short-Range Air-to-Air Missile (ASRAAM) and the AIM-9 air-to-air missiles.
the missile will require about five times the G capability of the target to complete a successful intercept.
-Robert L Shaw
No, it's either Gripen or nothing.
A referendum or initiative won't be about the choice, but the needs for new fighters is questioned in general.
E/F has redesigned intakes to ensure higher airflow but they look very similar, see pic. Not sure if the upgrade includes any mods to reduce RCS?
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
Interesting -- however what's also interesting is that the Rafale did not just beat the Hornet and the Gripen but also the Typhoon in the Swiss a2a scenarios.
The French always claimed they did not see the great need for HMD -- perhaps their system actually works surprisingly well without? Or is it something else that makes the Rafale perform so surprisingly well?
The chart talks about defensive and offensive a2a -- what could they mean by that?
No, we don't! For all we know, the newspaper could have pulled those numbers from a very dark spaceThose graphs are just rumours from allegedly leaked reports. But officially, the Gripen met the requirements, any details are classified. End of story.
So I would take all those nice stories, esp. from French speaking parts of Switzerland, with a load of salt. I think its a mixture of clever PR and some disappointed souls.![]()
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
See the first post, you said it yourself the deal is about the E/F, not some interim version.
If you're thinking about doing the assembly in Switzerland, or contribute some parts to the upgrade, thats possible and probably will happen due to offsets. But the end result will be a standard Gripen E/F.
Unless of course people go crazy during negotiations.
Didn't know that. Do you have any details? The specs say wing span remains at 8.4m, and "Some structural changes have been made to the wing, but its fundamental design remains unchanged."
At least thats what it says in Gripen News 23 April 2008. Are there newer specs?
Also, do you happen to know if its possible to carry 3 500kg LGBs on the centerline? 3 dumb bombs seems to be possible.
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
How do I feel about the Swedes selling the Swiss a fighter?
Neutral.
There are two sides to every story. The truth is usually somewhere between the two.
Important difference, note also he regretted the choice on Radio Suisse Romande i.e. a French speaking radio.
All the fuss about leaked data, Gripen not being good enough and Rafale is the only way to go is slightly curious to say the least. But I mentioned that already.
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
lolHow do I feel about the Swedes selling the Swiss a fighter?
Neutral.![]()
“Nothing is impossible, the word itself says 'I'm possible'!”
The newspaper reports are not official. Officially, they all passed the benchmark.
Well, thats not too far off I think. A-G is a no brainer even today. And in A-A, the Swiss Hornet is very capable with C-7 AMRAAM, AIM-X, HMCS and Super Hornet FCS.
Electronic gizmos (ECM, RWR, IFF) apparently are on par with US systems, at least since the latest upgrade started in 2008.
You'd think so, but actually thats what Ueli Maurer (defence minister) said himself![]()
How can less be more? It's impossible. More is more.
Yngwie Malmsteen
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