General UCAV/UAV discussion - A New Hope

[Sanem]

Excellent stuff BlauerMax, I can't wait to see it in the air.

Edit:

I also like this article:
http://australianaviation.com.au/201...ry-capability/

Basically a UAV that can land on any unprepared airfield. Pretty big, and also very interesting for any manned aircraft.

[insomnia.delhi]

Very amazing video, who are they marketing this to? (with the video)

[Tango III]

Israeli drone to Indonesia? via Philippines company.

Don’t Worry About Drones’ Source, Indonesia Defense Ministry Says

[Tango III]

-The CIA is worried that the RQ-170 that crashed in Iran may have failed to dump sensitive data before it went down.

US data in Iranian hands after downed drone?

[Sanem]

the 70mm APKWS missiles; a Hellfire alternative?

new video
Wiki
BAE site
Globalsecurity article

I think this is huge, for manned aircraft, but especially for UAVs and UCAVs

Hellfire (Wiki):
- $68,000
- 50 kg
- range 8 km

APKWS
- $10,000
- 8 kg (estimate)
- range 6 km

against most modern targets (insurgents, truck mounted regular army, speed boats; anything but tanks or bunkers) you get six times the hitting power for the same cost and with equal performance to the Hellfire

especailly for UAVs and UCAVs this is vital, as they have a much longer loiter time and often engage "soft" targets, so the increased munitions are a huge advantage

in the future I would also see them making it air-to-air compatible, giving manned and unmanned aircraft the ability to launch a large number of missiles at short range, Gundam style

[BlauerMax]

Very amazing video, who are they marketing this to? (with the video)

It is a tech demonstrator at the moment like the X-47B and Taranis.

[swerve]

the 70mm APKWS missiles; a Hellfire alternative?

new video
Wiki
BAE site
Globalsecurity article

I think this is huge, for manned aircraft, but especially for UAVs and UCAVs

Hellfire (Wiki):
- $68,000
- 50 kg
- range 8 km

APKWS
- $10,000
- 8 kg (estimate)
- range 6 km

against most modern targets (insurgents, truck mounted regular army, speed boats; anything but tanks or bunkers) you get six times the hitting power for the same cost and with equal performance to the Hellfire

especailly for UAVs and UCAVs this is vital, as they have a much longer loiter time and often engage "soft" targets, so the increased munitions are a huge advantage

in the future I would also see them making it air-to-air compatible, giving manned and unmanned aircraft the ability to launch a large number of missiles at short range, Gundam style

There's a range of such missiles around. Thales UK makes the 13kg LMM (in production for the Royal Navy & British Army for use on helicopters, flown on UAVs). Roketsan in Turkey makes the Cirit, a laser-guided 70mm rocket in production for Turkish army helicopters. There are at least three others, with Israeli & S. Korean firms involved in a couple of them. One has an IIR seeker.

If you want a UAV-launched AAM, then you can buy Mistral or Stinger, both of which are already in service in the AAM role. Stinger has been flying on UAVs for at least 10 years.

[mrmalaya]

As the US starts to think about what they will face after Afghanistan, here is a piece on UAV operations in contested airspace from Aviation Week:

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/gener...&headline=UAVs Need To Adapt For Contested Airspace

[Tango III]

-NATO will spend 3.0 billion euros ($3.9 billion) to buy and operate five U.S.-built drones over 20 years in an effort to fill a gap exposed in the Libyan air war, an official said Feb. 15.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

[djcross]

-NATO will spend 3.0 billion euros ($3.9 billion) to buy and operate five U.S.-built drones over 20 years in an effort to fill a gap exposed in the Libyan air war, an official said Feb. 15.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

So, NATO is buying the version of Global Hawk that USAF recently canceled because it doesn't work?

[Peter G]

No.

The USAF is binning the Block 30 (ELINT & EO/IR sensors) and retaining the Block 40 (radar). NATO is Block 40.

[mrmalaya]

So today's news suggests that once the UK and France have flown their technology demonstrators they are aiming to move very quickly (next year) towards defining what the joint UCAS (announced today) will be able to do...

I think this project has massive potential, particularly now the sovereign interest is to be shared between the 2 countries...

Any thoughts?

It looks like they have said they are going to make damn sure that the F35 is not the end of European fast jet manufacture...

[Tango III]

-Beijing-based Yotaisc Science and Technology Development Co. unveiled the X200 vertical take-off/landing (VTOL) UAV for the first time at the Singapore Airshow.

http://www.defensenews.com/article/2...text|FRONTPAGE

[Nopia]

So today's news suggests that once the UK and France have flown their technology demonstrators they are aiming to move very quickly (next year) towards defining what the joint UCAS (announced today) will be able to do...

I think this project has massive potential, particularly now the sovereign interest is to be shared between the 2 countries...

Any thoughts?

It looks like they have said they are going to make damn sure that the F35 is not the end of European fast jet manufacture...

They are not building a fast jet so I don't know where you get the idea that this threatens the F-35 from. They're two totally different platforms with very different roles. Also the Euro nations that will order the F35 will order it well before this joint UCAV is anywhere near the factory floor.
As for the potential of this project, well if you include the potential to be late, over budget, lacking in capability and "built for but not with" then it would be following the European style of botching up aircraft and UAV programs.

[mrmalaya]

dear nopia,

How do you suppose they will power this UCAS? And how fast do you suppose it will fly?

I suppose you are right in so far as jet propulsion may not be the answer (but that is a bit far fetched).

With regard to the F35, the UK will use the F35 alongside whatever comes from this project, but I would suggest to you that an airframe operating in the 2030-40 time frame is less likely to be permanently manned (if at all) and as such will be a UCAS, and will therefore be the future of French/UK fast jet manufacture with little or no US input.

This last point is vital to the survival of both French and British aerospace success in a domestic and export sense.

Oh and have you even read the announcement? Your angry little answer suggests not....

[acozcan]

Hi,
This is my first messege to this forum, first of all, I want to say that I found very useful with lots of pretty nice information.

I wonder if there is a list, study covering the possible ammos that can be applied to UCAVs.

Ammo types, names, and their detailed information(weight,range,vs. maybe)?

Thanks.

[obligatory]

They would preferably be small, so i would start with SDB 2 & Brimstone on that list, and it's a very good bet some even smaller munitions will be produced.

[swerve]

Weapons carried to date include Hellfire & Stinger.

Weapons proposed include LMM, APKWS & Cirit.

[Sintra]

As for the potential of this project, well if you include the potential to be late, over budget, lacking in capability and "built for but not with"

That description of yours can be easily aplied to the following programs, JSF, ATF, JVX, and a few others that clearly are not "European".
On the other hand that description clearly doesnt aply to the French ACX or the Swedish JAS 39. And may i ask what European UAV was ordered by an European Government that was "late, over budget, lacking in capability"? The only one that springs to mind was the (very) small BAE Systems Phoenix...

[swerve]

Ah yes, the Phoenix. Accurately described on spyflight.co.uk as "a UAV that looked like the losing entry, by a bunch of failed YTS graduates, in a 'design your own Heath-Robinson UAV competition' using components found in the nearest scrapyard. The old adage - if it looks right, it probably is right, certainly applies to Phoenix, which looks wrong and usually didn't work.

... Sadly even to this day there remain some misguided and rather deranged individuals who believe that Phoenix was a good system and worth the money - despite all the evidence that the whole system should have been strangled at birth." :diablo:

I understand that in Iraq in 2003 the RA sometimes deliberately kept them in the air spotting targets until it was too late to bring them back, then crashed them. This was officially for operational reasons, but I suspect the very high crash rate on landing contributed to the decisions. Worth trading a UAV you have a good chance of losing anyway for some good imagery.

13 years from first flight to service entry (ten years late), retired 7 years later.

But Watchkeeper (2 years late on what was originally a 5 year schedule) is pretty normal by US standards, & Falco, Camcopter, Luna, Aladin, Crecerelle, & KZO all appear to be successful. CL-89 & CL-289 (both multinational) were perfectly good for their time. Sperwer has had a mixed history, but some users seem content with it.

[acozcan]

Hi,
This is my first messege to this forum, first of all, I want to say that I found very useful with lots of pretty nice information.

I wonder if there is a list, study covering the possible ammos that can be applied to UCAVs.

Ammo types, names, and their detailed information(weight,range,vs. maybe)?

Thanks.

When I said UCAVs, I mean the ones like x-47A/B/C, Predator C, Phantom, Taranis vs. vs., the stealth combat ones.

[mrmalaya]

Predator sense and avoid radar testing underway:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...-radar-368731/

[raptor2019]

General Atomics Tests 2nd Predator-C Avenger UAV



General Atomics announced Feb. 7 that it has test flown a second unmanned Predator-C Avenger combat aircraft.

The aircraft was first flown on Jan. 12 at the company’s Gray Butte Flight Operations Facility in Palmdale, Calif.

[Tango III]

RQ-4 Global Hawk variant designed for the US Navy's requirement for broad area maritime surveillance (BAMS) closer to first flight.

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...flight-368853/

[mrmalaya]

Story from Flightglobal:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...gramme-368972/

Bidders include 2 prop and one rotor driven design.

[mrmalaya]

Barracuda to be sent to Canada for sense and avoid tests, plus news of EADS interest in advanced UCAV design features:

http://www.flightglobal.com/news/art...esting-368968/

Duly amended with thanks

[swerve]

Same link in both posts.

[raptor2019]

European Industry Calls for UAS Regulatory Framework



A representative from the European defense industry came out strongly in favor of the European Union developing a regulatory framework for unmanned aerial systems (UASs) at a workshop on research and development into UASs here Feb. 9. 2012

[J-20B Snoopdog]

Althoughs the first aplications are will probably be for civil use like wifi, 4g broadsband, this may also solve the military:diablo: uav/ucav bandwith problems:
http://iopscience.iop.org/1367-2630/14/3/033001/article

[mrmalaya]

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs...entId=blogDest

So are they saying that they are going to move towards developing the technology for future UASs but not push the Talarion?

I'm not sure i agree with him on the UK and France not affording Telemos. I personally believe the fewer partners the better when it comes to European aerospace projects...