Chinese Air Power Thread 16

[QuantumFX]

Regarding the L-15 (JL-15 Falcon) : Link

Developed by HIAG with the technical assistance from Yakovlev OKB

Like Mikoyan helped CAC (e.g. FC-1), Yakovlev helped HIAG with the JL-15 (hence the similarities with Yak-130). This was very well known.

[PLA-MKII]

Mad Rat, certainly not a step up to the FC-1, 21KN versus 83+Kn. (AI-222 vs RD-93)

[emile]

everyone twist their wings. from F22 to Cessena 172.

ideally you want to stall the inboards first like the old spitfire.
even if you stall, you want to retain the aileron effectiveness.
but, spanwise flow , and etc etc, makes the wing outer span stalls early usually .

having a twisted wing means your tip aoa is at a lower angle relative to the inboard... lower aoa/lower loading/further away from stall. and if you stall ailerons (which are usually located at outer spans still have effectiveness)

having a wing leading edge twists, or actuated slats outboard is the same idea.
if one is venturing enough, you can move the ailerons to unload when aoa gets high enough.

Only me can see through your misguiding to the others.
We all know what is the exact meaning of Twist here from Haavarla
You were playing him or you are not able to explain.......

[J-20 Hotdog]

Mad Rat, certainly not a step up to the FC-1, 21KN versus 83+Kn. (AI-222 vs RD-93)

inaccurate. they are similar.

straight from the manufacturer's site
http://en.klimov.ru/production/aircraft/RD-33-family/
http://ivchenko-progress.com/welcome.do?id=144&lang=en

RD-33
Full afterburning performance (H=0, М=0):
thrust, kgf 8300

AI-222-25
Full afterburning power SLS; ISA; σinlet = 1.0
Thrust, kgf 4200 (x2 = 8400)

thus two AI-222's are roughly similar to the RD-33, which is what the RD-93 comes from

[Pinko]

A very clear shot of CFTE WS10 engine flight testbed, converted from a SAC J11A built on Russian kit ( only AL31F being replaced by WS10 engine)

[Pinko]

The error I made is a later confirmation / fix of the regimental numbers and bases:
Lot 01 (2010) - 30. Fighter Division / 89. Regiment at Datong-Pulandian - 40x1x-numbers (PLAAF)
Lot 02 (2010/11) - 19. Fighter Division / 57. Regiment at Zhengzhou - 31x0x-numbers (PLAAF)
Lot 03 (2010/11) - 8. Fighter Division / 24th Regiment at Jialaishi - 81x8x-numbers (PLANAF)... this is a naval J-11BH
Lot 04 (2011) - 37. Fighter Division / 111. Regiment at Korla - 41x8x-numbers (PLAAF)
...

Good observations, it seems more evidences to support the counting.

A newly painted J11B flying over vicinity of SAC was caught in camera, the number 0329 near the left air intake suggests it is the 29th J11B from Lot 3 production. The Size of J11B batch production is impressive-- at least it easily wins over batch sizes of J11A built from Russian kits.

In these several years, PLAAF & PLANAF have added more than 100 J11B/BS, that put number of Flankers in PLA service more than 400, a heavy fleet size only next to that of USAF/USN combined. Up to date, there are more than 200 WS10 turbofan engines in the field run, alongside more than 1000 AL31F/FN engines.



A J11B in premier color, the highlights: increased using of composite material & WS10 turbofan engines.

[Deino]

Simply amazing these shots !

[JSR]

In these several years, PLAAF & PLANAF have added more than 100 J11B/BS, that put number of Flankers in PLA service more than 400, a heavy fleet size only next to that of USAF/USN combined. Up to date, there are more than 200 WS10 turbofan engines in the field run, alongside more than 1000 AL31F/FN engines.

Are those 100 J-11B/BS already delivered?
1000 AL-31F/FN are salut built. It does not include Saturn/UMPO built. Total AL-31 will be closer to 1500.

[TR1]

Can you link those photos, instead of messing up thread order badly?

Ty.

[TR1]

In these several years, PLAAF & PLANAF have added more than 100 J11B/BS, that put number of Flankers in PLA service more than 400, a heavy fleet size only next to that of USAF/USN combined.

Um, what? RuAF has about that many heavy planes (even if we are just talking about fighters).

[Fedaykin]

Yes but how many of those RUaF planes are actually flying?

[TR1]

Yes but how many of those RUaF planes are actually flying?

I was talking about flying ones, obviously.

[Austere]

PLAAF & PLANAF have added more than 100 J11B/BS, that put number of Flankers in PLA service more than 400

Exactly how many Flankers (in which versions) did PLAAF and PLAN order in total?

[mikoyan1991]

In these several years, PLAAF & PLANAF have added more than 100 J11B/BS, that put number of Flankers in PLA service more than 400

sure,UNLICENSET COPY

[Rookh]

Interesting piece of news regarding Progress. Could it be a possible powerplant for a 'light/medium weight' 5G Chinese programme? Or perhaps an engine upgrade for the FC-1/JF-17?

[Multirole]

Perhaps for JF-17 NG upgrade. Also a potential candidate for UCAV projects.

[TR1]

I see Progress is getting ahead of themselves. Their first after burning production engine is a nice accomplishment, but a new engine will take time.

[JSR]

sure,UNLICENSET COPY

I wouldnt calll it unlicesne copy as license was sold to them.
Unlicense will be if they create IL-76 copy.

[JSR]

It is design of engine. it will take 3 years for them to reach prototype. and couple of years more to reach certified mass production. and for that time period 9,500kg is simply pathetic. or Chinese so desperate to consider it.

[TR1]

Well hasn't China been supposedly working on a replacement for the RD-93? Given how long that has been going on, the massive (compared to Ukraine) resources they can throw at it, and the indigenous factor, I would be pretty shocked if they 1.) Would be interested in a Ukranian JF-17 solution or 2.) Would not be able to make a similar product in a faster time frame.

[foxmulder]

I was talking about flying ones, obviously.

So, active Su-27 (all derivatives) and Mig-31 totals to 400?

[TR1]

So, active Su-27 (all derivatives) and Mig-31 totals to 400?

At least, but in that general ballpark.

[JSR]

So, active Su-27 (all derivatives) and Mig-31 totals to 400?

Comparing MIG-31 to Su-27 is the same as comparing MIG-29SMT to Su-27SK.
MIG-31 has 50% more MTOW than J-11/Su-27SM.
while there is hardly 25% difference between MIG-29SMT & Su-27SK.
There is practically little difference between MIG-29 & Su-27 interms of speed, altitude and weopons release Mach#.
MIG-31 is in different class.

[haavarla]

Surly China has upgraded their Su-27SK to an SKM version by now.. if not they are flying relics..

[TR1]

Surly China has upgraded their Su-27SK to an SKM version by now.. if not they are flying relics..

By that standard many, if not most, of the aircraft operated by air forces worldwide are flying relics.

[QuantumFX]

Surly China has upgraded their Su-27SK to an SKM version by now.. if not they are flying relics..

honestly, we have not heard of any upgrade for the Su-27SK. One rumor was the the 1st 24 planes bought have been retired and engines salvaged so they could be used the for the early J-11B when the WS-10 had its issues. WS-10 issues solved and J-11B and her variants kicking into high gear, looks like the Su-27SK won't be getting any upgrade.

[tphuang]

flankers in PLA,
76 Su-30mkk
24 Su-30mkk2
38 Su-27sk
40 Su-27ubk
They built 105 J-11 of different indigenous content.
and about 100+ J-11Bs (so, I think they've used up their 200 licenses) -> 3 batches of J-11B (first one with AL-31F and next two with WS-10A) + 1 batch of J-11BS using WS-10A. Each batch is around 24 to 30.

I'm not sure how many have been lost to accidents so far.

Of the 40 Su-27ubk, the last 28 were received in the third update received the upgrade to be able to fire R-77s.
Of the 38 Su-27sk and 105 J-11, I read a while ago that at least 70 received the SKM upgrade. We've even seen PL-12 on J-11s, so I'm not sure what kind of upgrades were done on the latter J-11s exactly. I'd think most of the su-27 and J-11 that have meaningful service life left would've received some kind of upgrade.

[tphuang]

Well hasn't China been supposedly working on a replacement for the RD-93? Given how long that has been going on, the massive (compared to Ukraine) resources they can throw at it, and the indigenous factor, I would be pretty shocked if they 1.) Would be interested in a Ukranian JF-17 solution or 2.) Would not be able to make a similar product in a faster time frame.

I think the one they are working with Ukrainians would be more advanced than the WS-13. Also, the Chinese engine industry is still very behind as seen by all of the problems in WS-10A production. WS-13 is not going to receive the same amount of funding, because PLAAF is not dependent on it. So, it might take another 3 years before we see it being mass produced.

[haavarla]

WS-13.. Interesting. Seems like a smart move to work with Ukraine.
Thx for the input tphuang.

[Austere]

flankers in PLA,
76 Su-30mkk
24 Su-30mkk2
38 Su-27sk
40 Su-27ubk
They built 105 J-11 of different indigenous content.
and about 100+ J-11Bs (so, I think they've used up their 200 licenses) -> 3 batches of J-11B (first one with AL-31F and next two with WS-10A) + 1 batch of J-11BS using WS-10A. Each batch is around 24 to 30.

I'm not sure how many have been lost to accidents so far.

Of the 40 Su-27ubk, the last 28 were received in the third update received the upgrade to be able to fire R-77s.
Of the 38 Su-27sk and 105 J-11, I read a while ago that at least 70 received the SKM upgrade. We've even seen PL-12 on J-11s, so I'm not sure what kind of upgrades were done on the latter J-11s exactly. I'd think most of the su-27 and J-11 that have meaningful service life left would've received some kind of upgrade.

Thank you very much!