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Thread: Chinese Air Power Thread 16

  1. #421
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    Are there any photos of this other flying J-20 with WS-10G engine and TVC nozzles

    Or is it just as mysterious as the J-16 birdy claimed to be in development..
    Thanks

  2. #422
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    oh.. not the 117S again..
    China claim they do not want or need any Su-35S import.. But wait!
    We need the engines.. can we pls buy your engines.

    Where is that quadruple face palm when i need it.
    don't be so cocky. what makes you think Chinese people can't make good engines? let's not forget China has almost 10 times the population as Russia and around 30 degrees higher annual temperatures
    Last edited by Thornado; 3rd May 2012 at 23:34.

  3. #423
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    In English, the word population reminds me of the only word will be pollution, sounds similar, isn't it?
    Logically, the number of people have nothing to do with innovation or invention.
    Last edited by emile; 5th May 2012 at 00:38.
    The truth usually between two extremes, the key is when and where.

  4. #424
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    Quote Originally Posted by emile View Post
    In English, the word population reminds me the only word will be pollution, sounds similar, isn't it?
    Logically, the number of people have nothing to do with innovation or invention.
    Yeah Thornado is the forum clown, don't mind him.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  5. #425
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thornado View Post
    117S initially, then WS-15
    No no no! There are no engines by NPO Saturn at CAC let alone the 117S. CAC works with MMPP Salut. CAC & Salut have been doing business for a long time. Salut slightly modified the AL-31 for the J-10 (AL-31FN). NPO Saturn is not the only one in Russia that has High performance engines. Just ask flateric.

  6. #426
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Are there any photos of this other flying J-20 with WS-10G engine and TVC nozzles

    Or is it just as mysterious as the J-16 birdy claimed to be in development..
    I am not convinced with WS-10G. A close inspection of the nozzle shows it looks a lot more like an AL-31 variant than a WS-10 variant. Member named maya at SDF (who seems to specialize in engines) said J-20 has an AL-31 variant and will do so until WS-15 is ready.

    There is a difference between the PLAAF & PLAN WS-10. Whether it purely for long flights over the ocean (some added corrosion resistance thinggy) or whether there is a thrust increases I don't know. The WS-10B powering J-10B prototype (1035) has higher thrust it seems compared the the baseline WS-10 in J-11B (132kN V 125kN).

    Edit : There are other WS-10 variants planned, (up to 155kN) but I am just not convinced (yet) that the J-20 will use any of them. WS-15 is the required engine.
    Last edited by QuantumFX; 4th May 2012 at 09:02.

  7. #427
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Hmm.. thx.
    Are there really three complete J-11B regiments operational now?


    Ok, in that list, it seems there are about 50/50% of domestic and Russian build Flankersih.. so that means 50/50% in term of WS-10 and AL-31F engines too..

    WTF is going on in China!?
    My guess is that quite simply it will take time to build new production lines in order to ramp up production. For every one new flanker they need to make two engines, and if they've just sorted out production problems last year, they probably still need to build a broader infrastructure for higher production capacity. Until then, Russian engines need to fill the projected supply gap.

  8. #428
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Edit : There are other WS-10 variants planned, (up to 155kN)
    I doubt it, may I know the source?
    The truth usually between two extremes, the key is when and where.

  9. #429
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    Quote Originally Posted by emile View Post
    I doubt it, may I know the source?
    Actually I doubt it too . My wording was not correct . WS-10G is supposed to have 150+ kN thrusts, but no official sources, just the usual rumors.

  10. #430
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    Actually I doubt it too . My wording was not correct . WS-10G is supposed to have 150+ kN thrusts, but no official sources, just the usual rumors.
    The 150+ kn still is suspicious, more tricky pose will be welcome.
    The truth usually between two extremes, the key is when and where.

  11. #431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thornado View Post
    don't be so cocky. what makes you think Chinese people can't make good engines? let's not forget China has almost 10 times the population as Russia and around 30 degrees higher annual temperatures
    WS-9 = derived from Rolls Royce Spey
    WS-10 = derived from GE F101 and CFM56
    WS-11 = derived from Ivchenko-Progress AI-25
    WP-13 = derived from Tumansky R-13-300

  12. #432
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    WS-10A has about 30,000 lb of thrust and WS-10G has over 32,000 lb of thrust with jagged nozzles AFAIK
    Last edited by Thornado; 5th May 2012 at 16:52.

  13. #433
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    Jagged nozzles?
    Like F135?
    Thanks

  14. #434
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Jagged nozzles?
    Like F135?
    stealth nozzles that reduce RCS

  15. #435
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    And now you gonna show us any pics?
    Thanks

  16. #436
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    And now you gonna show us any pics?
    WS-10G powering J-20, same class as F-22's engine

    http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/541/34503895.jpg/

  17. #437
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    And where are the jagged nozzles in this pic?
    Thanks

  18. #438
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    And where are the jagged nozzles in this pic?
    oh no, its the return of those zig zags again!


  19. #439
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    I dont think China want 117s in the first place.

    estentially, 117s and WS-10's variations are the same generation high bypass ratio turbofan engines, 117s or not, the J-20's supercruise performance will be limited.

    If you read the journal papers written by the J-20 project director, you would have figured out they care about supercruise very much, thats why they employ such a low aspect ratio, carcanrd with leading edges design, which they claimed could offer high agility without the loss of supercruise performance.

    I recall in one source they claimed the fighter would be capable of supercruise with a turbofan engine which has a by-pass ratio<0.4, which is quite good, but neither WS-10 or its variations nor 117s has such low by-pass ratio.

    Basically WS-10/117s are engines for last generation air-superiority fighters, which has very high by-pass ratio (>0.5), whilst academic research papers on WS-15 suggesting WS-15 can achieve 160kN of thrust at a by-pass ratio of 0.2.

    Which is quite impressive, since YF-119, with a by-pass ratio of 0.2, only manage to deliever 135kN thrust, whilst F-119, with a by-pass ratio of 0.3, barely deliever 155kN of thrust.

    F-135, which is estienally a F119 with a much bigger external hulls, althrough can deliever a 190kN thrust, but it has a last generation by-pass ratio of 0.6.

    Which means, there is basically no hope for a jet powered by F-135 can have super-cruise performance.

    By-pass ratio is a far more critical performance indicator for a jet's high mach performance than max-thrust(which is usuallly representing the low-speed low attitude's thrust), thats why J-20 dont need 117s, since it is not much better than AL-31F or WS-10s in terms of performance of concerns.

  20. #440
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    And of cause, China's jet engines, will just like anything else in the military industry, will surpass russians' in the near future.

    Russian enjoyed a head-lead, thanks to having been industried about 100-150 years earlier than China, and thanks to the huge investment in its defense industry during the cold war era.

    But the lead can only get you this far, I think prety much everyone and their dogs, including Russians themselves who are not in some serious denial mode, can figure this very obvious thing out.

    So this is very unhelpful, sometimes even pathetic, when Russian "fanboys" here always love to bring the "Russian invincible engine techniques" out whenever there is a talk among Chinese military industry etc.

    Its kind like an aging man, whose prime is long gone and even in financial troubles now, bragging how he still own a better watch he bought 50 years ago comparing to a new rich guy who is about to get a expensive watch a week later, you know, kind of enjoying his last bragging right when it is still last.

  21. #441
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    What's pathetic is how you take any mention that Russia is ahead on engine development (which it is, across the board) to be talk of "invincibility".

    Just as you took the Su-35 talks to be "a spit to the face".

    Get over yourself.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  22. #442
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGW06 View Post
    And of cause, China's jet engines, will just like anything else in the military industry, will surpass russians' in the near future.

    Russian enjoyed a head-lead, thanks to having been industried about 100-150 years earlier than China, and thanks to the huge investment in its defense industry during the cold war era.

    But the lead can only get you this far, I think prety much everyone and their dogs, including Russians themselves who are not in some serious denial mode, can figure this very obvious thing out.

    So this is very unhelpful, sometimes even pathetic, when Russian "fanboys" here always love to bring the "Russian invincible engine techniques" out whenever there is a talk among Chinese military industry etc.

    Its kind like an aging man, whose prime is long gone and even in financial troubles now, bragging how he still own a better watch he bought 50 years ago comparing to a new rich guy who is about to get a expensive watch a week later, you know, kind of enjoying his last bragging right when it is still last.
    Dude. Pls stop spaming. You are not making any sense..
    When the Su-35 prototype flew in Early 2008, we also read, the China vould overtake Russia in near future.
    To this day this has not happend, infact China is not even close the 117s/117 engines.
    Why don't you produce a singel official statement from Chineese jet engine manufactors.
    You talk the talk, now its time to put some evidence/sources up.
    Thanks

  23. #443
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    Ws-15 and Al-41 are both around at same level of development. so if you believe the targeted specs of ws-15 once it is produced and put on J-20. There will be no gap at all.

    This discussion depends on whether you believe China can produce ws-15 or not. If you believe, then, certainly, there is not a significant capability gap. If you don't, then China is backwards.

    From what I see, I tend to believe that China can put ws-15 on J-20 in 3 to 5 years.

  24. #444
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
    Ws-15 and Al-41 are both around at same level of development.....
    I don't understand, Al-41F1 (117) is already flying with the T-50. This engine has a max thrust of 147 kN. Then there is the Al-41F1A (117S) powering the Su-35. This has a max thrust of 142 kN. The next generation engine for the T-50 (170 - 180 kN ???) is under development. I think both Salut & Saturn are vying for this. But the AL-41F1 series is already flying.

  25. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    I don't understand, Al-41F1 (117) is already flying with the T-50. This engine has a max thrust of 147 kN. Then there is the Al-41F1A (117S) powering the Su-35. This has a max thrust of 142 kN. The next generation engine for the T-50 (170 - 180 kN ???) is under development. I think both Salut & Saturn are vying for this. But the AL-41F1 series is already flying.
    Obviously, I am talking about this.

  26. #446
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    Quote Originally Posted by foxmulder View Post
    Ws-15 and Al-41 are both around at same level of development.
    AL 41 is a variable bypass engine. It is already abandoned by the Russians.

  27. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGW06 View Post
    F-135, which is estienally a F119 with a much bigger external hulls, althrough can deliever a 190kN thrust, but it has a last generation by-pass ratio of 0.6.
    Bypass ratio is a design choice not last generation
    The Bypass ratio is designed to be 0.6 not because of engineering problems but because the designers want the majority of thrust to come from the compressed air to improve fuel efficiency giving the aircraft longer range. The increase thrust is achieved through increased airflow and very high inlet temperature which is currently unique to F135 @ > 2250K.
    By this logic the LEAP-X is extremely last generation with bypass ratio of 10:1
    Even China wanted the LEAP-X for the C919
    If you want 0 bypass ratio get a turbojet.
    Last edited by WinterStars; 6th May 2012 at 18:25.

  28. #448
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    Quote Originally Posted by SGW06 View Post
    And of cause, China's jet engines, will just like anything else in the military industry, will surpass russians' in the near future.

    Russian enjoyed a head-lead, thanks to having been industried about 100-150 years earlier than China, and thanks to the huge investment in its defense industry during the cold war era.
    It is incorrect statement to make that huge investment in defense industry led to Russia lead during Cold war period. when Russia GDP itself was 10 times smaller than current period and lack of hard currency didnot provide the CNC machines & supercomputer infrastructure to leap into next generation. More accurate statement is more techncial manpower was used to achieve modest results.
    But the lead can only get you this far, I think prety much everyone and their dogs, including Russians themselves who are not in some serious denial mode, can figure this very obvious thing out.
    Tu-95/142 can stay in air for 44 hrs and Blackjack over 22 hrs. even Su-34 will do for 16 hrs. Not even Chinese leadership has any confidence on Chinese made engines either. They will never travel in aircraft with Chinese made engines for next 30 years. and this compromised there work when ever they are in air.
    So this is very unhelpful, sometimes even pathetic, when Russian "fanboys" here always love to bring the "Russian invincible engine techniques" out whenever there is a talk among Chinese military industry etc.
    Well China has bought more than 1000 Salut engine and that not includes Ulfa/Saturn production. First AL-31FN were design at Saturn and production shifted to Salut. The total quantity may well be 1500 hundred engines for AL-31 family alone. Add several hundred D-30 class engines. and the result is pretty obvious to see China cant make reliable and long endurance engines.
    Its kind like an aging man, whose prime is long gone and even in financial troubles now, bragging how he still own a better watch he bought 50 years ago comparing to a new rich guy who is about to get a expensive watch a week later, you know, kind of enjoying his last bragging right when it is still last.
    Well Shanghai the most wealthiest/educated city in China is aging faster than Tokyo. when you create bogus economic growth based on land sales the cost of living goes faster than people can afford to live with decent standard.
    http://blogs.ft.com/beyond-brics/201...#axzz1u3Wdn0Bm

  29. #449
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    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Dude. Pls stop spaming. You are not making any sense..
    When the Su-35 prototype flew in Early 2008, we also read, the China vould overtake Russia in near future.
    To this day this has not happend, infact China is not even close the 117s/117 engines.
    Why don't you produce a singel official statement from Chineese jet engine manufactors.
    You talk the talk, now its time to put some evidence/sources up.
    China could overtake Russia on few show-off projects massively financed by the government but it's hardly sustainable on the long run. A project that can't survive on the market is just a money sinkhole. I can't see a situation where an export customer aiming to spend large amounts of money on high tech equipment would willingly choose Chinese over French, American or Russian. Although Chinese exports to 3rd world countries might rise, Chinese arms industry will remain largely dependant on domestic economics and domestic orders for the upcoming future.

    The Chinese on the forum might not realize it but the country's population of 1.3bn is a heavy burden for the economy. It will take zillions to make them up onto an economically active level.. I don't want to sound rude but the figures our marketing department use with their analyses are pretty harsh - for the automotive and consumer goods industry, Chinese market is worth some 100-120mil people wealthy enough to afford the basic basket of goods typical for an average Western citizen.. That's just under 10%..

    For comparison, imagine that current ca 160mil economically active Americans would have to pull a population worth over 1.8bil instead of current 300+mil.
    Last edited by MSphere; 7th May 2012 at 10:22.

  30. #450
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    Quote Originally Posted by MSphere View Post
    China could overtake Russia on few show-off projects massively financed by the government but it's hardly sustainable on the long run. A project that can't survive on the market is just a money sinkhole. I can't see a situation where an export customer aiming to spend large amounts of money on high tech equipment would willingly choose Chinese over French, American or Russian. Although Chinese exports to 3rd world countries might rise, Chinese arms industry will remain largely dependant on domestic economics and domestic orders for the upcoming future.

    The Chinese on the forum might not realize it but the country's population of 1.3bn is a heavy burden for the economy. It will take zillions to make them up onto an economically active level.. I don't want to sound rude but the figures our marketing department use with their analyses are pretty harsh - for the automotive and consumer goods industry, Chinese market is worth some 100-120mil people wealthy enough to afford the basic basket of goods typical for an average Western citizen.. That's just under 10%..

    For comparison, imagine that current ca 160mil economically active Americans would have to pull a population worth over 1.8bil instead of current 300+mil.
    I want to first point out, I am not Chinese.

    Your info seems a little bit outdated. For many markets, China started to even pass USA.

    Anyway, it is not the point. The point is the growth. Let's assume the number you gave, ~120 million who live like westerners is accurate. 10 years ago that number was around 30 million, 20 years ago it was 5 million.

    Every economic projections indicates China will be the biggest market for almost everything in very close future.

    Moreover, using these figures to say Chinese military products depends on Chinese Army is pointing the obvious. This is true for even mighty US military industry. Don't forget US military industry is at that level because of MONEY. USA has been the biggest spender for almost 70-80 years. So, what we see here is very natural.

    I dont want to be rude but in all honesty saying "China could overtake Russia on few show-off projects massively financed by the government but it's hardly sustainable on the long run." is nowhere close to being objective.

    Like it or not, right now, China can produce literally anything their Army needs. Sure one can point out engine purchases but still this is although important not really significant when you look at the big picture. Especially when you see ws-10. And I cannot help but wonder what will you guys say when J-20 starts to fly with ws-15. Are you guys going to accept China caught Russia??

    I see China as one of the significant powers. Baring some crazy crises, it will be the largest economy in a decade and this will probably meant it will have a comparable military spending to USA at that time which IMHO probably will be much larger than what Russia can spend. Even now, It has the second largest budget. This will reflect on the capabilities.
    Last edited by foxmulder; 7th May 2012 at 16:30.

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