Chinese Air Power Thread 16

[emile]

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1. Yes ... but Inot the PLAAF Su-30MKK, only the MK2 ... something I never questioned. Therefore I don't know what You want to proof ?

2. Maybe my or Your English is not the best, but that sentence is unclear: Anyway I try. Yes, a pos equipped JH-7 has a similar funktion, but again the Flanker uses only Russian PGM's and the JH-7A only Chinese ones, which are ost likely less expensive. As such even if You might think it's useless, sensless or whatever, it's simply a fact. Ask the CMC or PLAAF HQ, why they are so stupid and operate both types in similar roles even against Your better knowing.

3. YES, see above, but maybe You can't read or You don't want to understand: Even if the Flanker surely can use LGB's, the PLAAF never bougth any Russian ones. As such You can call me stupid or even more ... since there are no LGB's claered for the PLAAF-Flankers, they don't use them. Othersise in return, the Flankers can't use the KD-88 or YJ-83 ASM ... and even if they surely have other comparable systems on market, in PLAAF service they are not used. Period.

4. SGW06 ?? is this relevat to that topic ??

Deino

Now everything go mess.
The equipment of JH-7 and Su-30() can not be interchangeable, however this also can not be used to prove JH-7's capability is more advance than Su-30()

I did ask some favor from you via another **, if you don't remember, I won't forget. Nothing offensive I hope, but recognize people is more important than recognize weapon. It is true and good for your understanding tech.

[Thornado]

JH-7 is in the generation of F-4 and F-111. It is being phased out by J-11BS.

[Sens]

JH-7 is in the generation of F-4 and F-111. It is being phased out by J-11BS.

The JH-7 is like the other examples just a part of a weapons-system to do a given mission with that. As long as it can be fitted with weapons to do the main mission in mind it can be kept in service till the end of its technical life-time of ~3000+ flight hours.

[TR1]

JH-7 is in the generation of F-4 and F-111. It is being phased out by J-11BS.

How many J-11BS have been spotted so far?

[Thornado]

How many J-11BS have been spotted so far?

Su-30MKK/MK2 are upgraded to J-11BS standard equipped with Type 1474 radars, WS-10 series engines, much better glass cockpits, and with R-77 replaced by the much faster PL-12.

[TR1]

Proof?

Or more fantasies?

PL-12 isn't faster than R-77, nice try though.

[Thornado]

:diablo:

Proof?

Or more fantasies?

PL-12 isn't faster than R-77, nice try though.

oops, R-77 is actually faster than PL-12. my mistake. must have been confused with something else.

[Deino]

How many J-11BS have been spotted so far?

As far as I know each of the J-11B regiments have four of them ! ... but again they are only used as trainers ! (at least for the moment)

Su-30MKK/MK2 are upgraded to J-11BS standard equipped with Type 1474 radars, WS-10 series engines, much better glass cockpits, and with R-77 replaced by the much faster PL-12.

Honestly, You are actually "oil" into all fires of those who call "Chinese Aviation Enthuisiast" simply "fan boys".

Therefore I kindly ask You to give proof of such "stupid" claims especially since both aircraft are substantially different.

Fact: so far one of the old J-11 has been converted to the WS-10A but none of the older Su-27SK or even UBK and even no S-30MKK.

As such plesae give proof or otherwise check Your sources.

Deino

[Thornado]

an interesting source on Chinese Flankers

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SinoFlanker.html

[Fedaykin]

One of Carlo Kopps's analysis's, interesting enough especially as he wasn't ranting about his pet hate the F35.

One notable mistake on the other hand is stating the WS10 is an AL31 clone, whilst the Chinese engine certainly benefited from technology insertion from the Russian engine it is not based on the latter. The WS10 has a different configuration with 3 fan and 9 compressor stages vs 4 fan and 9 compressor stages on the AL31 and is technically a clone of the GE-F101 via the civilian CFM56 thus making it a half brother of the GE-F110.

[Thornado]

One of Carlo Kopps's analysis's, interesting enough especially as he wasn't ranting about his pet hate the F35.

One notable mistake on the other hand is stating the WS10 is an AL31 clone, whilst the Chinese engine certainly benefited from technology insertion from the Russian engine it is not based on the latter. The WS10 has a different configuration with 3 fan and 9 compressor stages vs 4 fan and 9 compressor stages on the AL31 and is technically a clone of the GE-F101 via the civilian CFM56 thus making it a half brother of the GE-F110.

WS-10 is a Chinese engine, not a clone IMO.

[emile]

I'd rather say the WS-10 will be a sort of clone of GE's F110 more than clone of AL-31.

[Deino]

an interesting source on Chinese Flankers

http://www.ausairpower.net/APA-SinoFlanker.html

Sorry again for being critical, but Kopp's analysis are no anylysis but simply collections of information based on other sources, while he often intentionally uses only those parts of informations that fit into his "view" ....

One of Carlo Kopps's analysis's, interesting enough especially as he wasn't ranting about his pet hate the F35.

One notable mistake on the other hand is stating the WS10 is an AL31 clone, whilst the Chinese engine certainly benefited from technology insertion from the Russian engine it is not based on the latter. The WS10 has a different configuration with 3 fan and 9 compressor stages vs 4 fan and 9 compressor stages on the AL31 and is technically a clone of the GE-F101 via the civilian CFM56 thus making it a half brother of the GE-F110.

... to persuade the Australian government that Australians are an endangered species, encircled by Chinese and other Asian powers, fully armed up to their teeth with either super-Russian weapons or indigenously developed - but surely based on Russian - CHinese ones, which can only be saved if Australia gets the F-22. :diablo:

Deino

[MSphere]

Su-30MKK/MK2 are upgraded to J-11BS standard equipped with Type 1474 radars, WS-10 series engines, much better glass cockpits, and with R-77 replaced by the much faster PL-12.

J-11BS is based on Su-27UB, not Su-30MKK/MK2. I have to say that the average knowledge niveau of Chinese posters about their own air force is quite alarming. Do you people ever study the topic before you post?

[Fedaykin]

WS-10 is a Chinese engine, not a clone IMO.

The development history of the WS10 is well established, the Chinese used the core of the CFM International CFM56 as a starting point. The core section of that engine is based on the GE-F101 as fitted to the Rockwell B1 but also used as the basis of the GE-F101 Derivative Fighter Engine(DFE) that was fitted experimentally to the F14 and F16. The GE-F101DFE was developed into the GE-F110 that was fitted to the F14, F16 and some F15.

That in effect makes the WS10 a reverse engineered clone of the GE engine, that is not to takeaway or besmirch the challenges the Chinese would of faced. The core of the CFM56 whilst based on a fighter engine would of been optimised for civilian use with fan blade, material and tolerance differences. To stop the engine burning itself out would of taken much R&D...as has been reported. The earlier WS10 was short-lived, underpowered and prone to compressor stalls. Only after significant redesign work has China got the engine to the point of service acceptance.

Now when it comes to semantics, yes China had to design and build a new engine by itself but rather then reinvent the wheel they used an existing design as a starting point and to make clear my earlier observation it certainly isn't a clone of the AL31 as is widely but incorrectly reported by many sources.

[haavarla]

Quite right.
And i find it weird that some posters often claim that China are or will produce its own engines to replace the Russian AL-31FN(J-10) and AL-31F(J-11) engines, and yet we see more import orders.

It looks like the AL-31FN engine are at present time not going to be replaeced anytime soon.. If someone has any other source, pls show?

The WS-10 Engine series, however do replace the AL-31F from Russia, but at what rate? Are they to be installed on those Russian produced Flankers Su-30MKK/MK2?

[Deino]

Quite right.
And i find it weird that some posters often claim that China are or will produce its own engines to replace the Russian AL-31FN(J-10) and AL-31F(J-11) engines, and yet we see more import orders.

It looks like the AL-31FN engine are at present time not going to be replaeced anytime soon.. If someone has any other source, pls show?

The WS-10 Engine series, however do replace the AL-31F from Russia, but at what rate? Are they to be installed on those Russian produced Flankers Su-30MKK/MK2?

Sorry, this tread is really getting funny ! ... as so often the truth lies right in between both extremes.

YES, the WS-10A hat a troubled gestation, which took too long, was surely quite expensive (as all learning processes are), led to yeras of delays and a field of semifinished J-11B waiting for their engines at the SAC tarmac, delayed the installation of the TH on the J-10 but .... one has to understand the Chinese way of handling such things. They always take a two-way option in case one fails:

- therefore in parallel to the prolonged development, they ordered still additional AL-31F's for their Flankers and FN's for their J-10.
- then they added the TH to the J-11B, which - again delayed on the first production block - has now finally matured and as far as I know, no Flanker is rolling of the production line at SAC without the TH.
- the next step as just tested with no. 1035 is the installation of the TH with the J-10B and when this is certified for a single-engined fighter I'm almost sure all new-built J-10B will have that engine.
- that however means not thta they still have to import additional AL-31F and FN, since - even if modified and running thru a SLEP at the Chengdu
Aeroengine Factory - several of them have right now and more will have their service life expired. As such they need replacement engines and since - even if propably interchangeable as tested on one J-11A - I think they will still use the reliable Russian engine in a similar way the USAF uses both the F100 & F110 at the F-16.

Therefore to assume the WS-10 is unreliable doesn't hold the trueth - in the same way as it is surely not as matured as the AL-series, but (similar to the JH-7 and Su-30MKK used both for similar roles) the PLAAF relies on both engines surely for decades to come.

Deino

PS: I hope I'm not regarded a stupid "Chinese Fan boy". :diablo:

[QuantumFX]

Quite right.
And i find it weird that some posters often claim that China are or will produce its own engines to replace the Russian AL-31FN(J-10) and AL-31F(J-11) engines, and yet we see more import orders.

It looks like the AL-31FN engine are at present time not going to be replaeced anytime soon.. If someone has any other source, pls show?

The WS-10 Engine series, however do replace the AL-31F from Russia, but at what rate? Are they to be installed on those Russian produced Flankers Su-30MKK/MK2?

This again :

Imported engines are manly for CAC projects. J-10 (AL-31FN), FC-1 (RD-93), J-20 (AL-31FMx? ). There is one J-10B prototype flying with a WS-10B (1035) and an FC-1 prototype with WS-13 is said to be doing taxi trials, but I have never see any images. CAC don't seem to be in a big hurry to get local engines or ones they require are not available. Unlike SAC, they have access to Russian engines specifically from MMPP Salut.

SAC, especially J-11B and variants WILL NOT get Russian engines. Russia is not contractually obliged in anyway to provide engines for J-11B, but they still send kits for the J-11A. So far all WS-10 engines have gone to J-11B/BS/BH/BSH, along with at least 1 J-15 prototype.

CAC will continue to use Russian engines, but eventually they'll be replaced with WS-10 variants, WS-13 & WS-15. SAC has to use WS-10 & variants, PERIOD.

[haavarla]

Both thx for input.

So as it stands, practicaly all bar a few J-10 are still on the AL-31FN engines and with no near future sight of getting domestic engines up and running.

As for the J-11 fleet, there seems that most of them are indeed going with the WS-10 series engine.

So how was the PLAAF Flankerish numbers again?
How many Su-27SK/Su-30MKK/MK2 vs J-11 are in service now??

So China has WS-13 and WS-15 on trials or in some test program right now.
Are there any specs on these engines, anything?

The reason i ask is, i want to compair them with Russian fighter engines like the FM1 and by year end FM2 engines.

[QuantumFX]

...
So as it stands, practicaly all bar a few J-10 are still on the AL-31FN engines and with no near future sight of getting domestic engines up and running.

All J-10 in-service use AL-31FN and another batch of AL-31FN was ordered IIRC (over a 100?). There is one J-10B prototype (1035) that flies with WS-10B engine, but that all. Don't forget the J-20 will also fly with a Salut engines until WS-15 is ready. CAC is not embargoed like SAC.

...
So how was the PLAAF Flankerish numbers again?
How many Su-27SK/Su-30MKK/MK2 vs J-11 are in service now??

So China has WS-13 and WS-15 on trials or in some test program right now.
Are there any specs on these engines, anything?

The reason i ask is, i want to compair them with Russian fighter engines like the FM1 and by year end FM2 engines.

Excluding retired or damaged/crashed ones:

Deino should know better, but here are some tables by HKSDU @ SDF mid last year. But the numbers have increased.

WS-13 has similar specs to the RD-93. Max thrust ~85kN (There is newer 90-95kN class engine but thats a different core). WS-13 was certified in 2007 and FC-1 taxi trial on 2010 but I have not seen any images of an FC-1 with WS-13.

WS-15 is still in development. High altitude core testing is said to have completed in 2009. Its officially a 150kN class engine. Recent rumors put it at 165kN (some even higher). But in terms of official specifications you won't get anything.

[haavarla]

Hmm.. thx.
Are there really three complete J-11B regiments operational now?


Ok, in that list, it seems there are about 50/50% of domestic and Russian build Flankersih.. so that means 50/50% in term of WS-10 and AL-31F engines too..

WTF is going on in China!?


Let me take us back to when the Su-35 b/n"901" made first flight in Feb 2008.

I remember there was lots of post on how little and how late the Russian Aviation Industy was, the Pak-Fa Program was just a dream project etc etc...

And that the Chineese Aviation Industry would in a couple of year overtake their Russian counterparts on both R&D and surly on production quantity sinse China had so large workforce, huge funding and what not.


Fast forward summer 2012, i do not get the feeling that this is the case..
I mean look at the numbers and unit types in question.

Ok, sure the Russian Aviation Industry are still pluaged by the Soviet downfall, but thing are improving fast. Sukhoi are making different co-operation deals with western aviation companies, like seen on SSJ-100 etc.
And while they are producing choppers, Strikers, super Flankers and even Tu-160, and launching a massive upgrade program for a multitude for their current fleet over the VVS. They are also Re-tooling and upgrading their production plant all over..

Seems to me the "Crystal ball" used back then, was "Made in China"..

[haavarla]

WS-13 has similar specs to the RD-93. Max thrust ~85kN (There is newer 90-95kN class engine but thats a different core). WS-13 was certified in 2007 and FC-1 taxi trial on 2010 but I have not seen any images of an FC-1 with WS-13.

WS-15 is still in development. High altitude core testing is said to have completed in 2009. Its officially a 150kN class engine. Recent rumors put it at 165kN (some even higher). But in terms of official specifications you won't get anything.

That WS-15 engine must be one Massive jet engine..

Aviadvigatel D30-F6 turbofans, are rated at 152 kN thrust.
Given the MiG-31's role as Mach 2.8+ interceptor and the sustained afterburning this requires, its fuel consumption is higher when compared to other aircraft serving in different roles, such as the Su-27. Consequently, the aircraft's fuel fraction has been increased to more than 0.40—16,350 kg (36,050 lb) of high-density T-6 jet fuel.

Seems to me it has the be in the same physical size and weight as the D30-F6 engine..
Eighter that the Thrust specs is a tad optimistic.. Seeing is believing.

[Sens]

The Chinese are in need for an engine for the J-20. It seems the WS-15 will be similar to the F119 or NPO-Saturn-117/AL-41F1-Tf. For aerodynamic testing and flight behavior a WS-10/AL-31F will do. For the related ratios less internal fuel and equipment for the prototypes will give something close of a 50% internal fuel and equipped series J-20 by that.

[QuantumFX]

That WS-15 engine must be one Massive jet engine..

Aviadvigatel D30-F6 turbofans, are rated at 152 kN thrust.
Given the MiG-31's role as Mach 2.8+ interceptor and the sustained afterburning this requires, its fuel consumption is higher when compared to other aircraft serving in different roles, such as the Su-27. Consequently, the aircraft's fuel fraction has been increased to more than 0.40—16,350 kg (36,050 lb) of high-density T-6 jet fuel.

Seems to me it has the be in the same physical size and weight as the D30-F6 engine..
Eighter that the Thrust specs is a tad optimistic.. Seeing is believing.

Their target is an F119 class engine (minimum 150 - 155 kN). Don't for get YF119/YF120 came in the late 80s. Its 2012 (30+ years later), and WS-15 has flown only on a Il-76 engine testbed. I heard that it'll take 7-10 years after the completion of high-altitude testing to enter service (2016 - 2019). So I don't think its optimistic. This is why the current prototypes have AL-31 variant (rumored to be 135 - 140 kN). There is an image of the WS-15 core but you won't see the full thing soon.

[Sens]

Their target is an F119 class engine (minimum 150 - 155 kN). Don't for get YF119/YF120 came in the late 80s. Its 2012 (30+ years later), and WS-15 has flown only on a Il-76 engine testbed. I heard that it'll take 7-10 years after the completion of high-altitude testing to enter service (2016 - 2019). So I don't think its optimistic. This is why the current prototypes have AL-31 variant (rumored to be 135 - 140 kN). There is an image of the WS-15 core but you won't see the full thing soon.

Lifetime is no issue for prototype test-work. That gives the 135 - 140 kN for the selected AL-31 variant by running as hot as possible alone.

[haavarla]

That would put it right in the AL-31FM1 class, but perhaps with less TBO though.
But as Sens say, it matters little, they just change them more often, no problemo..

[TR1]

So...J-20 is indeed currently, and in the foreseeable future, mounted with AL-31?

After all the denial....

[Thornado]

So...J-20 is indeed currently, and in the foreseeable future, mounted with AL-31?

After all the denial....

117S initially, then WS-15

[haavarla]

oh.. not the 117S again..
China claim they do not want or need any Su-35S import.. But wait!
We need the engines.. can we pls buy your engines.

Where is that quadruple face palm when i need it.

[Fedaykin]

Well yes and no, it looks like there are at least two flying prototypes one with the latest high power WS-10G variant and another probably with AL31. That is entirely in keeping with China's hi-lo risk policy when it comes to defence development. That would allow different prototypes to focus and different aspects of testing. The higher powered WS-10G variant appears to have a vectored thrust nozzle and is probably focussed on expanding the flight envelope in preparation for the WS-15. The lower powered but known to reliable AL31 prototype with non vectoring nozzles is probably more focussed on systems certification. Just speculation on my part but in keeping with a sensible test program.

Considering the WS-10G is needed for the J-15 development program which is further ahead then the J-20 and critical if the carrier is to start testing and the WS-10B is needed for the J-11B regiments standing up its entirely sensible to use AL31 on some of the J-20 prototypes that are still early in their test program.