Indian Missiles News

[Corrosion]

Maybe due to the change from marraging steel to filament wound tubes?

Last November, several challenging new technologies that this missile incorporates were validated in an unannounced launch of the surprise Agni-4 missile. That new 3,500 kilometre range missile successfully tested a new composite rocket motor, made of lightweight composite materials instead of the heavier “maraging steel” that earlier rocket motors were fabricated from. The other brand-new technologies that the Agni-4 tested included: a highly accurate “ring-laser gyroscope based inertial navigation system (RINS)”; a “micro-navigation system (MINGS)”; and a powerful new onboard computer.

Business Standard

[Corrosion]

Anyone have the list of deficiencies pointed out by Chinese TV when showing the Agni 5 launch?

State-owned China Central Television said the missile "does not pose a threat in reality", enumerating some of its shortcomings, from a problem with guidance systems to its 50-ton-plus weight.

CCTV said the missile would have to be fired from fixed positions, making it more vulnerable to attack.

Al Jazeera

[matt]

CCTV is the mouthpiece so it would be interesting to know what they think they know!

As for the fixed location, how do they get that? was that for internal consumption...

As for the CCP and what they still believe who knows...

[Boom]

I don't know how many warheads the Indians are able to put on one of these yet, but I would have thought there need to be a lot of missiles and warheads aimed at China to deter them.

Although I am ignorant as to the details (do they still think it possible to survive a nuclear attack because of the size of their population?).

I am assuming you are talking of china. I don't think that cold war philosophy is still in place. most unlikely that loss of even one or two high value cities would be acceptable to the chinese.

this version has a single warhead but MIRV tech exists (India has time and again demonstrated multiple sat launch and holds the record for largest # of sats launched in one mission -- 10) but needs to be tested and validated. that's the next thing on the cards.

What India really require is a good wheeled TEL. Without proper TEL, it is going to be a nightmare in terms of deployment. China and Pakistan are far ahead in terms of their mobile systems. India have not yet even started acquiring any decent TEL.

you are extrapolating others' situation to India. all of India's strategic missiles are rail mobile, including today's agni-5.

road based TEL made sense for countries with vast wildernesses like russia, US or china.

[Boom]

State-owned China Central Television said the missile "does not pose a threat in reality", enumerating some of its shortcomings, from a problem with guidance systems to its 50-ton-plus weight.

CCTV said the missile would have to be fired from fixed positions, making it more vulnerable to attack.

too bad they didn't elaborate.
because I can find no weaknesses in these categories.

[JangBoGo]

Arun_S is of the opinion that the actual range of A5 is much more than quoted.

from another forum ..

Arun_S said
IMHO satellite launch capability is being mis read by media. The craft can only place very small satellite in low earth orbit. Hardly of military value (mil value sats are RISAT type weighing few humdred Kg in 900 km orbit.)

OTOH what the spokesmen are saying is that the craft is capable of placing few hundred kg sats in low earth orbit; a.k.a this missile is a full range ICBM (>20 K Km reach) that can place a half tonne warhead any corner of the world. I am surprised no one has caught on this clear statement.

any thoughts?

So probably that explains NATO's quick response that Indian missile launch does not present any threat?

I'm not an expert on the matter....so it puzzles me on how that 20K range is possible
Does it not follow a pure ballistic trajectory....or .....is that range achieved by the final stage orbiting for a while before re-entry?
Can anyone explain?

[JangBoGo]

you are extrapolating others' situation to India. all of India's strategic missiles are rail mobile, including today's agni-5.

road based TEL made sense for countries with vast wildernesses like russia, US

Are you saying that India do not need a road mobile TEL?

even Russia have almost closed the chapter with rail based TEL and India's "inspiration" and idea for such a thing most likely came from the Russian experience. But it is not the best way. Road mobile TEL is the way to move forward as it can go much more places than what a rail carriage can go.

But in the current situation (with no canisters like Topol-M), the rail carriage would be a better idea as the carriage will give protection to the missile from environment and other factors that could affect its operational life and performance.

But TEL has to be the way forward as it gives good maneuvering space compared to the railway lines.

[Mercurius]

Arun_S is of the opinion that the actual range of A5 is much more than quoted.


any thoughts?

I do not know of any ICBM for which a range of more than 20,000 km has been claimed. So I view Arun_S's claim with more than a large dose of scepticism.

[Kramer]

Are you saying that India do not need a road mobile TEL?

even Russia have almost closed the chapter with rail based TEL and India's "inspiration" and idea for such a thing most likely came from the Russian experience. But it is not the best way. Road mobile TEL is the way to move forward as it can go much more places than what a rail carriage can go.

But in the current situation (with no canisters like Topol-M), the rail carriage would be a better idea as the carriage will give protection to the missile from environment and other factors that could affect its operational life and performance.

But TEL has to be the way forward as it gives good maneuvering space compared to the railway lines.

Agni-V is meant to be a road-mobile missile. Eventually, when it is operationalised, a road mobile TEL will be developed for it.

But anyway, how is it easy to track down a rail-mobile missile that could be anywhere on India's vast railway network? It would be far easier to spoof a satellite into thinking that it isn't where it is believed to be, after all a specialised carriage need not always be carrying an operational Agni-V.

[TR1]

Al Jazeera

LOL!

This is the same reliable news that some posters in the Chinese thread hold dear.

[Boom]

Are you saying that India do not need a road mobile TEL?

even Russia have almost closed the chapter with rail based TEL and India's "inspiration" and idea for such a thing most likely came from the Russian experience. But it is not the best way. Road mobile TEL is the way to move forward as it can go much more places than what a rail carriage can go.

But in the current situation (with no canisters like Topol-M), the rail carriage would be a better idea as the carriage will give protection to the missile from environment and other factors that could affect its operational life and performance.

But TEL has to be the way forward as it gives good maneuvering space compared to the railway lines.

India's rail mobile missiles may have been inspired by russia's but the situation is quite different. India has a far denser rail network than russia and provides significant advantages in terms of camouflaging the missiles. more so than a road mobile missile.

agni-5 is meant to be a road mobile canisterised version so you will get your wish as well.

[Distiller]

Those who want to do road mobile ICBMs have never driven on Indian roads.

[Corrosion]

Those who want to do road mobile ICBMs have never driven on Indian roads.

LOL...Good point. Although I doubt somebody will come in your way if you were driving something like this. :diablo:

[rayrubik]

I'm not an expert on the matter....so it puzzles me on how that 20K range is possible
Does it not follow a pure ballistic trajectory....or .....is that range achieved by the final stage orbiting for a while before re-entry?
Can anyone explain?

Originally posted byMercurius I do not know of any ICBM for which a range of more than 20,000 km has been claimed. So I view Arun_S's claim with more than a large dose of scepticism.

The payload is important here.Most operational ICBMs will travel 20000 km or more if payload is adjusted.Similar is for rockets carrying various payloads to medium earth orbits or geosynchronous orbits.

[rayrubik]

Indication that India now have 150 - 250 kT warhead..

Speaking earlier to Business Standard, Avinash Chander said, “Megaton warheads were used when accuracies were low. Now we talk of [accuracy of] a few hundred metres. That allows a smaller warhead, perhaps 150-250 kilotons, to cause substantial damage. We don’t want to cause wanton damage [with unnecessarily large warheads].”

[Kramer]

Livefist has an article that states that as per Dr V.G.Sekaran Director of ASL, DRDO, the first test firing of the Nirbhay long range cruise missile is slated for July-August timeframe.

link to article on Livefist

India's Tomahawk-like long range cruise missile Nirbhay is expected to be test-fired for the first time in July-August this year, according to the Dr V.G. Sekaran, director of the Advanced Systems Lab (ASL) at DRDO.

This will be, without a doubt, the most significant weapon test since, perhaps, the Agni-III. The Nirbhay, shrouded in secrecy for long, is understood to be a two-stage high subsonic cruise missile with loitering capabilities. Sources suggest that apart from the engine (apparently supplied by NPO Saturn), the rest of the system is fully indigenous.

Indian private sector giant Tata revealed recently that it was building the vehicle [PDF] that will be the carrier/launcher for the Nirbhay system. The Nirbhay will be based on the "indigenous high mobility, all-terrain and all-wheel drive Tata LPTA 5252-12 X12 vehicle", developed in partnership with DRDO.

[matt]

Chinese media mock India's 'dwarf' missile

While the Indian media are being swept along by the euphoria of the successful test launch of Delhi's first long-range ballistic missile - which can reach deep within China - Chinese papers have dismissed outright its impact on India's military might vis-a-vis China.

A lot of jeering but no real technical reasons why...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-17784779

[matt]

Livefist has an article that states that as per Dr V.G.Sekaran Director of ASL, DRDO, the first test firing of the Nirbhay long range cruise missile is slated for July-August timeframe.

link to article on Livefist

interesting news...

[killerbean]

Those who want to do road mobile ICBMs have never driven on Indian roads.

Agreed on that. Plus from wiki:

- Indian Railways has 114,500 kilometres (71,147 mi) of total track over a route of 65,000 kilometres (40,389 mi) and 7,500 stations.

That is a lot of railway track. I am sure that would present enough "maneuvering space" and is much faster than being road mobile.

IMHO, while road TELs would be nice the current rail launch system is largely adequate for now.

[Twinblade]

Those who want to do road mobile ICBMs have never driven on Indian roads.

True. Those huge trucks would indeed look odd on most of the Indian highways.

[Mercurius]

The payload is important here.Most operational ICBMs will travel 20000 km or more if payload is adjusted.

That depends what you mean by “adjusted”. Reduce the payload of an ICBM by a large enough amount, and you will achieve orbital velocity. That is what was done with the original Russian R-7 (SA-6 ‘Sapwood) ICBM. It was designed to carry a 5.5 tonne payload, but could orbit a satellite weighing just over 1.3 tonnes.

But if we look at real-world examples, the longest range claimed for any operational ICBM is the 16,000 km achieved by a Russian R-36 (SS-18 ‘Satan’) fitted with a lightweight warhead rather than the normal 8.8 tonne payload. The US considered fielding a 15,500 km range version of its Titan II, but this stretch of range from 10,000 km would have required reducing the warhead weight by half.

In the case of the Agni 5, we have a missile that cannot quite achieve the 5,500 km range normally taken as the lower limit of ICBM performance. And with what warhead weight? A figure of 1.5 tonnes has appeared in press reports. So to judge by the Titan II data, it looks like we would have to reduce the Agni 5 payload to 750 kg to obtain a range of around 8,500 km.

It is a long way from even that amount of range extension to the 20+ km that Arun_S was suggesting. When the reduced payload weight falls below the minimum needed to create a warhead, fuzing system, re-entry vehicle, and whatever penaids are thought necessary, you have reached the maximum possible range for the missile. But your CEP will have been degraded by the increased range.

[Twinblade]

Anyhow, seems like the speculations about the range being more than what is being disclosed are right.

http://www.deccanherald.com/content/...unch-mini.html

The DRDO chief, however, refused to disclose Agni V’s actual range. “It is more than 5,000 km. I cannot give you the exact range. That's classified,” he said. Asked whether Agni V could be described as an inter-continental ballistic missile, Saraswat said he would prefer to describe it as a long-range ballistic missile.

[Samsara]

That depends what you mean by “adjusted”. Reduce the payload of an ICBM by a large enough amount, and you will achieve orbital velocity. That is what was done with the original Russian R-7 (SA-6 ‘Sapwood) ICBM. It was designed to carry a 5.5 tonne payload, but could orbit a satellite weighing just over 1.3 tonnes.

But if we look at real-world examples, the longest range claimed for any operational ICBM is the 16,000 km achieved by a Russian R-36 (SS-18 ‘Satan’) fitted with a lightweight warhead rather than the normal 8.8 tonne payload. The US considered fielding a 15,500 km range version of its Titan II, but this stretch of range from 10,000 km would have required reducing the warhead weight by half.

In the case of the Agni 5, we have a missile that cannot quite achieve the 5,500 km range normally taken as the lower limit of ICBM performance. And with what warhead weight? A figure of 1.5 tonnes has appeared in press reports. So to judge by the Titan II data, it looks like we would have to reduce the Agni 5 payload to 750 kg to obtain a range of around 8,500 km.

It is a long way from even that amount of range extension to the 20+ km that Arun_S was suggesting. When the reduced payload weight falls below the minimum needed to create a warhead, fuzing system, re-entry vehicle, and whatever penaids are thought necessary, you have reached the maximum possible range for the missile. But your CEP will have been degraded by the increased range.

A 50 ton missile to have a 5000 km range seems misleading. Either the Indians are quite behind in missile tech or they conveniently choose a figure which just about covers China but leaves out western europe.

[Twinblade]

Agni-V trials in final configuration to begin early next year

The first of the six flight trials of India' longest range ballistic missile, Agni-V, in its final quick-reaction configuration, providing a canister-launch capability, will be held in early 2013.

While in Thursday's successful maiden flight, the three-stage missile blasted off from a rail mobile launcher at Wheeler Island, the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has already made a lot of progress to meet the Army's requirement to provide a canister-based launch from a road mobile vehicle.

With the mission validating the design of Agni-V, the next step is to provide the canister-launch capability, Avinash Chander Chief Controller, R&D, (Missiles and Strategic Systems), DRDO, told The Hindu. Pointing out that canister-launch capability was already demonstrated for 700 km range Shourya missile and BrahMos cruise missile, he said “those technologies will get up-scaled.”

[Mercurius]

A 50 ton missile to have a 5000 km range seems misleading. Either the Indians are quite behind in missile tech or they conveniently choose a figure which just about covers China but leaves out western europe.

I do not think that India’s missile technology is in any way substandard. The two upper stages of Agni 5 are both fairly small, and may have been deliberately designed to be less than optimal in order to constrain the range.

In 2007, the Indian press reported that India did not want to develop a full-range ICBM in order to avoid the risk that international sanctions on its ballistic programme would be tightened.

[Alpha Bravo]

In 2007, the Indian press reported that India did not want to develop a full-range ICBM in order to avoid the risk that international sanctions on its ballistic programme would be tightened.

I don't think India would be slapped with international sanctions if it did develop an ICBM; I doubt Europe and the US view India as a potential threat, in the same vein they did Libya/Iraq or still do for Iran and North Korea. If anything, I'm sure the US and some parts of Europe are quietly pleased and would encourage India to develop more sophisticated nuclear delivery systems, primarily as a bulwark against Chinese military expansion in Southeast Asia.

The fact is that, although India clearly has the means to develop an ICBM, it doesn't really need to as it's main potential threats come from Pakistan and China.

[Samsara]

I do not think that India’s missile technology is in any way substandard. The two upper stages of Agni 5 are both fairly small, and may have been deliberately designed to be less than optimal in order to constrain the range.

In 2007, the Indian press reported that India did not want to develop a full-range ICBM in order to avoid the risk that international sanctions on its ballistic programme would be tightened.

The weight of the missile does not correspond to the range looking at other long range missiles in the world.

The warhead is unnaturally large. Either India is not confident that they cannot miniaturize their nuclear warheads to a small enough size or they put a huge warhead on it just to constrain the range.

[matt]

The weight of the missile does not correspond to the range looking at other long range missiles in the world.

The warhead is unnaturally large. Either India is not confident that they cannot miniaturize their nuclear warheads to a small enough size or they put a huge warhead on it just to constrain the range.

Would fit in with the discussions about the 1998 tests

[Kramer]

Ria Novosti is reporting that Ukraine and India are close to signing a deal for the supply of (surprise, surprise!) R-27 missiles ! Is there any truth to this or just a goof up? Why does the IAF need R-27 missiles for its MiG-29 and Su-30 fleet when it has them capable of using the R-77 and R-73E? Article states that Ukraine displayed an R-27 with an enhanced passive seeker with a range of 30 kms, but how effective is this missile?

Price mentioned (hundreds of thousands of $) seems to be ridiculously low, so could it just be that the IAF is getting new seekers for its existing inventory of R-27s? Or will they be long in the tooth and nearing the end of their shelf lives requiring the IAF to simply replenish its R-27 stocks as they are available at a cheap price?

link to article

Ukraine is close to signing one of its biggest ever defense deals for air-to-air missiles with India, according to Russian media reports.
Nezavisimaya Gazeta says the deal for R-27 missiles, worth hundreds of thousands of dollars, is in the final stages and is waiting for approval from the Ukrainian leadership....

The missile comes in infrared-homing (R-27T), semi-active-radar-homing (R-27R), and active-radar-homing (R-27AE) versions. It would be fitted to India’s MiG-29 and Su-30 fighter jets.

While the deal has not been confirmed officially, the paper quotes a source close to Ukraine’s national security and defense council, saying both nations are sensitive to Russian concerns over the deal and want to make sure that it would not irritate Moscow.

Tensions between Kiev and Moscow could arise later because if the deal is successful, India may want to buy other weaponry from Ukraine, entering a market dominated by Russia, defense analysts quoted by the paper said.
Some industry experts believe Moscow would not oppose the deal as the Ukrainian company is the only manufacturer of these missiles, although Russian firms supply some components for R-27.
...

Ukrainian R-27s displayed by the Artem and Arsenal companies at the Moscow air show in 2011 featured what the makers claimed were upgraded seekers. Arsenal said it had developed a new infra-red seeker for the R-27 extending its detection range from 18 km to 30 km.

[TR1]

Well, it is still a good missile, with long range, and I am not aware of a serially produced IR R-77.