Hot Dog's Ketchup Filled F-35 News Thread

[MSphere]

How was it deceptive?

Did you read the two lines above the image?

I specifically stated that EODAS was not an IRST in the traditional sense and gave the above screen cap of SniperXR (which EOTS is based on) as an example of what a IRST is capable of. In no way did I imply that the 36nm shot was from EODAS.

Yeah, I've mixed the EOTS with the DAS because you call it EODAS which makes the whole mess even worse .

[SpudmanWP]

EODAS = Sorry, old habit due to people confusing the F-35's DAS with the EF's DASS.

[obligatory]

What range does EOTS work in ?

[SpudmanWP]

LM's Sniper XR is a "mid-wave" FLIR. Since EOTS is based on teh SniperXR, I would say it's the same.

A mid-wave FLIR typically operates in the 3 to 5 μm range (1 μm is 1000 nm or .0001 cm).

[Sens]

How about real ferry range on internal fuel for the F-35 variants?!
A ~2750 km or 1500 nm
B ~2000 km or 1100 nm
C ~3000 km or 1600 nm
We keep in mind that the SH does not differ much from that in general. Be it the internal fuel-load, installed thrust, weight or size.

[MSphere]

LM's Sniper XR is a "mid-wave" FLIR. Since EOTS is based on teh SniperXR, I would say it's the same.

A mid-wave FLIR typically operates in the 3 to 5 μm range (1 μm is 1000 nm or .0001 cm).

MWIR was obviously chosen because it is better suitable for long range high mag surveillance against high temperature objects (exhaust nozzles, rocket plumes).

[SpudmanWP]

From what I have read, MWIR is also absorbed less by water vapor in the atmosphere.

[LowObservable]

Midwave was originally chosen because it had better, more photo-quality resolution at range. I believe that LW is slightly better for atmospheric transmission, in theory, and some IRSTs* either stayed in LW or went dual-band. I think the LockMart IRST may still be LWIR but Selex Galileo has now gone MWIR-only. And all the unclass missile-defense work with airborne IR tracking has used standard Reaper MWIR hardware.

* Real IRSTs. Not the "I'm not an IRST but I play one on TV" excuses on certain aircraft.

[Mercurius]

The US DoD recognises six ‘windows’ in the optical spectrum – bands in which atmospheric absorption is at a minimum:

ultraviolet (UV)
visible (VIS)
near infrared (NIR)
short-wave infrared (SWIR)
mid-wave infrared (MWIR)
long-wave infrared (LWIR)

In practice, several of these bands are divided into sub-bands by regions of high absorption.

There are three major high-absorption regions in SWIR (one fairly minor), one in MWIR, and one in LWIR.

[eagle]

How about real ferry range on internal fuel for the F-35 variants?!
A ~2750 km or 1500 nm
B ~2000 km or 1100 nm
C ~3000 km or 1600 nm
We keep in mind that the SH does not differ much from that in general. Be it the internal fuel-load, installed thrust, weight or size.

I would say it differs much.
Thrust and weight are comparable, but not internal fuel. F-35C carries almost 9 tons, SH a little more than 6.5 tons. That's about the difference from 2 external 480 gal tanks plus associated drag.
A clean F-35 surely outranges a clean F-18E by a wide margin.

[aussienscale]

About the F-35 Wing load:

Why does the F-35 have higher wing load vs both the Mig-29 and Su-27?

Su-27 Wing loading: 371 kg/m² 76 lb/ft²
Mig-29 Wing loading: 442 kg/m² 90.5 lb/ft²
F-35 Wing loading: 446 kg/m² 91.4 lb/ft²

The F-35 was designed to carry lots of weapons(weight) inside the boxy airframe for a starter, and not on its wing pylons..

Wing loadings are only a small part of the picture, apart from what you have mentioned about weapons loadout etc, it once again does not take into account body lift, the actual airframe design/wing design, materials used etc.

[J-20 Hotdog]

Breaking News:

Canada to withdraw from F-35 programme. Will consider F-18F and F-15 variants as an alternative.

[aussienscale]

Breaking News:

Canada to withdraw from F-35 programme. Will consider F-18F and F-15 variants as an alternative.

Refernce ? Link ? Official Source ?

[Twinblade]

Refernce ? Link ? Official Source ?

Check calendar.

[haavarla]

Wing loadings are only a small part of the picture, apart from what you have mentioned about weapons loadout etc, it once again does not take into account body lift, the actual airframe design/wing design, materials used etc.

Thats my point.
Take the Mig-29 and Su-27. They are by no means heavy for theirs size and purpose. They have a wide body with blended wing/fuselage.
Their body lift should be no less than F-35!

Which brings us back the my Q. Why does it come with so high wing loading in the first place?

What is the heaviest singel weapon/payload the F-35 can carry on inner wing station?
The DT?

[Twinblade]

Thats my point.
Take the Mig-29 and Su-27. They are by no means heavy for theirs size and purpose. They have a wide body with blended wing/fuselage.
Their body lift should be no less than F-35!

Which brings us back the my Q. Why does it come with so high wing loading in the first place?

What is the heaviest singel weapon/payload the F-35 can carry on inner wing station?
The DT?

Its being designed for some pretty heavy loading.

[Sens]

The shown option will not be used in a practical mission. But it gives an idea about the versatility of the F-35 and the way some stations can be used in none stealth missions.

[EELightning]

Breaking News:

Canada to withdraw from F-35 programme. Will consider F-18F and F-15 variants as an alternative.

I know someone that has a few spare Tranche 1 Typhoons...Aye, aye! Nudge, nudge! Wink, wink!*

A few months, or weeks or even days, ago I'd say I'd be very surprised if Canada pulled out of the F-35 programme, today, after seeing how much this programme is costing, up to now $1.51 trillion and the aircraft is only 20% complete at this stage, I wouldn't be surprised if Canada sees sense and pulls out. I wouldn't be surprised if Japan drops their orders, too.

I notice Lockheed Martin have quickly got shot of their "Affordable Fighter" saying. *Giggle*

[swerve]

I'd be very surprised if Canada pulled out of the F-35 programme, today, after seeing how much this programme is costing, up to now $1.51 trillion and the aircraft is only 20% complete at this stage,

It hasn't cost $1.51 trillion so far. That's an estimate of the total cost over its entire lifetime, including a few decades of operations, maintenance, future upgrades & everything else.

It's cost a hell of a lot, but it's still in the low tens of billions of USD up to now.

[Nicolas10]

The development of the F35 has cost more than the total programme cost of the Rafale. Talk about affordable

[SpudmanWP]

That's understandable considering:
1. Three airframes/missions being developed
2. Level of avionics integration involved
3. New technologies in the area of RAM/RAS being developed
4. Massive amount of software being developed (for both the aircraft and ground ops)
5. The majority of the avionics dev is done (AESA, EOTS, EODAS, RwW,MADL, etc).
6. The F-35 SDD program had 20 (IIRC) flying and non-flying fighters.
7. The low numbers of Rafales actually ordered up to this point.

[Nicolas10]

I said total programme cost = order for the 286 Rafales + through life support.

And the Rafale actually has a carrier version

STOVL version is useless anyway.

Nic

[SpudmanWP]

I almost forgot, the F-35 SDD program culminates with Blk3. The Rafale basically went IOC with the F-35's Blk 1.5. The F-35 will not declare IOC until everything is done, not with just one or two features done.

btw, Have a source on total Rafale program cost (in what year currency)?

[Mildave]

Its being designed for some pretty heavy loading.

Does the F-35 has a IR missile integrated on the internal bay ?

[JSR]

That's understandable considering:
5. The majority of the avionics dev is done (AESA, EOTS, EODAS, RwW,MADL, etc).
.

if development of avionics is done.will it not become obsolete by the time full scale production begins in 2019. around 2020 this thing will need further upgrades to deal with post 2020 SAM systems.

[SpudmanWP]

Does the F-35 has a IR missile integrated on the internal bay ?

Not till Blk4.

if development of avionics is done.will it not become obsolete by the time full scale production begins in 2019. around 2020 this thing will need further upgrades to deal with post 2020 SAM systems.

Block upgrades (primarily software) are on track to happen every 2 years after IOC with hardware upgrades happening every 4 years.

Since the latest hardware upgrade is TR2 (Tech Refresh 2) that is part of Blk2B, then that puts the next hardware upgrade at Blk4 which is in the 2017/2018 timeframe. The next hardware upgrade would then happen in the 2022/23 timeframe.

Nothing precludes them from adding whatever weapon or pod to the F-35 in the meantime.

[Yama]

It hasn't cost $1.51 trillion so far. That's an estimate of the total cost over its entire lifetime, including a few decades of operations, maintenance, future upgrades & everything else.

I thought that "calculation" was hilarious. Hey, how much does $15 broom cost when you figure in janitor's salary over 30 years?

[LowObservable]

Breaking News:

Canada to withdraw from F-35 programme. Will consider F-18F and F-15 variants as an alternative.

Might be a little less of the old poisson d'avril to this by tomorrow. Sounds like the auditor-general's ready to put the boot in.

http://www.thestar.com/printarticle/1154949

[Loke]

Well Canada could try to arrange a competition like we did in Norway.... However I think they would struggle to find a company that would be desperate enough to enter a bid, given the odds...

It seems to me that the Canadian Air Force already has indicated some of the requirements. Just like in Norway, there will be only one (Western) a/c that will meet the requirements and that will be the F-35.

So I agree with the Canadian MoD; why arrange a competition with only one candidate? Does not make sense.... (pun not intended Sens )

[LowObservable]

Loke - That may be true, insofar as the only way to make the F-35 win a contest is to tailor the rules to it, while making up estimates for the cost of other aircraft. Watch for emerging news...

Spud - You might care to reconsider your "the majority of the avionics work is done" in the light of the fact that IOT&E completion has just slipped another three years, to 2019.