INS Vikramaditya: Steaming towards Induction

[JangBoGo]

You seem to be confusing two separate issues, i.e. (1) the well-known & extensively reported problems with the original propellers, leading to her having to have inferior old propellers fitted until replacements could be made (the new props were fitted at the first major scheduled refit, increasing top speed by 2 knots), & (2) whether or not she has enough power.

No i did not. That is why I wrote those two in seperate para..

In the 1st I said, I was not aware that the propeller problem was so much deep. It means the problem lies in the very basic of a manufacturing process starting from metallurgy. And that is a very serious & deep problem seeing how air got trapped during the process...

In the 2nd, I was mentioning about the CDG limited top speed. And my understanding to the limitations is that, since CDG is using the small capacity N-plant from the submarines, It may not have the capacity to produce the required amount of cc of steam required for the steam turbines and the steam catpults (accumulators). CDG maybe able to keep a max speed in transit as the steam generated can be fully utilised for the propulsion units. But the problem may arise when air-operations start as it will require steam for the CATS also and hence a possible diversion/partition of the steam from the propulsion unit. This may/will limit the max speed...

[JangBoGo]

What would the most likely plant be if they dont go with nuclear power? All deisel with a small steam plant for the cats? CODAG? All gas turbines?

I hope you asked that due to the concern of the CATS oparation.

If the carrrier is not N-powerd, then probably the only option for the carrier to be a CATOBAR is to have 1-2 high capacity boilers to generate steam for the cats. But steam CATS are making way out for the EM cats, so newer non-Nuclear carier will not need the steam generators.

As for the propulsion itself, all diesel is highly unlikely unless the carrier is meant as a cargo ship . Diesels simply can't produce that sprint that a gas turbines can impart a ship. So most likely it maybe CODAG..

[swerve]

No i did not. That is why I wrote those two in seperate para..

In the 2nd, I was mentioning about the CDG limited top speed. And my understanding to the limitations is that, since CDG is using the small capacity N-plant from the submarines, It may not have the capacity to produce the required amount of cc of steam required for the steam turbines and the steam catpults (accumulators). .....

I was only replying to your second paragraph, regarding the speed limitation.

The speed limitation referred to by Wanshan in the post you replied to was, explicitly, that caused by the temporary use of old propellors (see below), which reduced the top speed by 2 knots. Now CdG has the right propellors, she's regained those 2 knots, & can steam at 27 knots again.

The possible performance limitation you describe above is a totally separate issue. You obviously confused the two.

What Wanshan wrote:

As a temporary solution, the less advanced spare propellers of Clemenceau and Foch were used, limiting the maximum speed to 24 knots (44 km/h) instead of the contractual 27 knots (50 km/h).
- The carrier was due to enter service in December 2000, but, following the breakage of a propeller blade during long-distance trials, this was delayed to April 2001. Charles de Gaulle went back to sea with two older propellers and sailed 25.2 knots (47 km/h) on her trials.

what you replied:

But are you sure that the CDG have got its speed limited due to the older propeller?"

[Jonesy]

Just to add a little background to this - it wasn't, as far as I've been able to uncover, anything to do with the age of the props from the earlier ships that caused the speed reduction.

Propellors....more properly 'screws'...are tailored to fit the propulsion machinery they are attached to. The screw will be profiled to fit the revs range, power throughput (torque) and the desired speed range for a given powertrain and hull.

You cant just take a screw from one ship and bolt it onto another, with a different powertrain, and expect equivalent performance even if the ships are roughly similar in dimension and displacement

It may be that the second ships' machinery delivers more torque at a specific point in the rev range than the original....so you get slippage at the screw at those revs. Slippage obviously meaning that some of the powertrains propulsive force is being lost in unproductive rotation and, correspondingly, the ship will suffer some performance loss etc, etc.

Not being designed to fit the Charles de Gaulle the screws from the earlier French CV's were only roughly compatible with the newer ship. Only losing 3knts off the top end was actually quite fortunate!.

[swerve]

I realise it wasn't their age, & it's unfortunate that it could be interpreted that way. By 'old' I (& I expect Wanshan, who I'm sure understands it) meant only to make clear that they were recycled, not made for Charles de Gaulle.

They were meant to drive smaller ships, being spare props from the old carriers Clemenceau & Foch, IIRC.

[Jonesy]

No slight on you or Wan intended there Swerve.

The article above struck me as a bit vague - mentions 'less advanced' and 'older' screws. Didn't strike me as the clearest description of the engineering issues involved!

[cinciboy]

Gentlemen. Please keep the discussion with Vikramaditya

[JangBoGo]

I was only replying to your second paragraph, regarding the speed limitation.

The possible performance limitation you describe above is a totally separate issue. You obviously confused the two.

Ok, got it. I misread the top speed.

[Stan hyd]

Plenty of pictures showing the development of Varyag have come out, not so many of Vikra, would really love to see some up to date pictures.

[JangBoGo]

Stan hyd,

Exactly after one year, your wishes have come true ...

More photos are on the way as the sea trials of INS Vikramaditya is nearing. I thought it would be better to post the new photos and news materials in this specific thread than in IN news and Discussion and request other members the same.



For all those who have been waiting to see pictures of INS Vikramaditya, its looks like they are set to have a field day in the coming days. Hope the good work from Oleg & Igor continues and the media is given access during the sea trials. Arial shots of the ship trials with its wake would be awesome.



http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/44843.html

[JangBoGo]

more...













http://kuleshovoleg.livejournal.com/45828.html

[JangBoGo]

X-posting news from IN thread, originally posted by Witcha

INS Vikramaditya Prepares for Taking Sea
19.04.2012

Igor Leonov, construction manager of Project 11430 aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya modernized by Sevmash shipyard for Indian Navy, told about works scheduled in April to prepare the ship for sea trials starting on May 25, reports the shipyard's press service.

According to Leonov, works planned for March have been almost completed. Final finishing of internal premises and assembling of shipborne furniture have been executed. Tanker Chaika pumped 3,600 tons of fuel into the ship. Tugs of the yard's water transport department did their job excellently and tugged the non-ice harbor tanker aboard the carrier.

Two critical issues remained uncompleted, i.e. startup of refrigerating machines and fixture of search-and-rescue equipment. The first problem needed personnel replacements, and the second one delayed for 10 days. This was because drawings of equipment fixtures did not match those on the ship, so additional works were needed.

Late in March, a contingency happened; smoke flue of one of eight boilers was damaged. The accident causes are being currently investigated. The boiler itself and charging turbine set were not damaged and are fully serviceable. Upon delivery of new expansion joints from St. Petersburg, the smoke flue will be completely repaired till sea trials begin.

On Apr 6, the ship was transferred to deperming station; all life support systems began off-line operation. Important indicator of self-sufficiency is that crew is regularly provided with hot food. One of three shipborne cookrooms was put into operation. All 360 servicemen keeping watch on the ship get three meals a day. Works on drinking water tanks go on as well; they will be treated by ozone which is the most advanced and effective method.

Since deperming works began, daily traffic flow to the ship exceeds 3,000 persons. Working and living conditions are already established. Washrooms, shower rooms, latrines, cabins for workers and crew members are fully-equipped and ready for use.

According to weather forecasts, night temperatures will be below zero in April. This causes additional problems to experts involved in deperming works. Early in May, it is planned to hold heeling test to calculate the ship's stability.

Then spare parts, tools and accessories will be loaded in the ship, as well as fuel and food supplies in order to maintain sea trials.

Sevmash started arranging the carrier's trials in the White Sea. De-berthing and pilotage plans have been agreed upon with White Sea Naval Base command. Fourteen tugs will be involved to provide safe departure of INS Vikramaditya.

http://rusnavy.com/news/navy/index.php?ELEMENT_ID=14944

Anyone got info regarding the hospital capacity on the ship??

[JangBoGo]

Press release from Sevmash JSC regarding the sea trials, demagnetizing and stability test of the ship.

Important Stage of Works
Monday, 09 April 2012 13:39

Yet another stage began with repair and modernization of the aircraft carrier “Vikramaditya”. Over the last weekend the ship was unmoored from the outfitting quay wall and moved to the wiping station.

During 20 days they will be measuring the magnetic field of the aircraft. This procedure is essential for all naval ships and for their protection against mine-and-torpedo weapons reacting to a ship's magnetic field. “The most important thing for us is that the aircraft carrier has become entirely self-contained: all internal systems and mechanisms, the ship’s propulsion system, galley, water supply system are operable,” reports the commissioning manager Igor Leonov, “the ship’s board has been uploaded with the foodstuffs for 30 days, there is the Russian crew constantly present on the aircraft carrier”. The movement operation itself, according to Igor Leonov, passed with success although not without some difficulties – the shipyard’s water area is still covered with ice.

The works on the aircraft carrier are going on day and night. At the same time there are up to 1100 workers on the ship, who get there by tugs. The next important stage is a heeling test: the ship’s board will be uploaded with the weights of 360 tons, which are to be transferred from one side to another at a certain time. The ship’s heel is used for calculation of its center of gravity, what is very important for estimation of stability. After all arrangements on the shipyard’s water area the aircraft carrier will sail to sea for sea trials. The departure is scheduled for the 25th of May.

Anastasia Nikitinskaya,
Head of Press Service
Photo by Maksim Vorkunkov

http://www.sevmash.ru/eng/news/419-0904

[JangBoGo]

X-posting from IN thread

She is looking nice here. Pics c/o SNaik BRF.

I'm not sure about the ATC tower or if its the purpose. But from the available photos it looks like it was installed at the most optimum place that could see the bow (Ski-Jump strip & front parking area) to aid in managing flight-deck traffic.

An angled shot from the front port side would be good to judge the tower's visibility to the bow section.

[19K11]

It is NOT an ATC tower and it is NOT optimaly placed to see the front and back of the ship.

[Witcha]

It's just a radio/communications mast, such that most next-gen frigate/destroyer designs have. Probably plays a role in the ATC's job, but that's not where the controllers reside.

[JangBoGo]

It is NOT an ATC tower and it is NOT optimaly placed to see the front and back of the ship.

yep, I think you are right. On closer look there is no provision for human "comfort" on that tower.

So there is only one ATC related part and that is on the island and we see it right above the bridge in the below picture. The close-up picture of the island gives us a good view of the ATC which is protruding outward.




Added later.
On the placement of the above said tower. The tower is placed on the extreme edge and for sure the ski-jump and parking lot will be visible..but on how much and how far remains to be seen.

[JangBoGo]

It's just a radio/communications mast, such that most next-gen frigate/destroyer designs have. Probably plays a role in the ATC's job, but that's not where the controllers reside.

yeah think so.
Only on closer look did I find that there is no provision for human stationing.

[JangBoGo]

Another one from TR1's post...showing the Island and the tower

http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attac...622&download=2

Its a shame not to see any Kashtan/Palma on the ship.

[Wanshan]

Another one from TR1's post...showing the Island and the tower

http://balancer.ru/forum/punbb/attac...622&download=2

Its a shame not to see any Kashtan/Palma on the ship.

Thx for posting the pics above.

I am half and half expecting the 16-round Barak + single missile director installation from Viraat to be transferred to the spot in front and below of the main radar or similar position behind the funnel at the rear of the island. Same might happen with the pair of 30mm AK 230 and Bofors 40mm. But then again, why not a beefier self defence fit e.g. doubling the number of Barak missiles and directors and/or using AK 630 or maybe even 76mm naval guns (as will be on her newer companion ship IAC)?

[JangBoGo]

An earlier picture of the ATC during construction.



I hope hot linking it won't create burden for Snake's album. If yes, i'll remove hot linking...

[JangBoGo]

Thx for posting the pics above.

I am half and half expecting the 16-round Barak + single missile director installation from Viraat to be transferred to the spot in front and below of the main radar or similar position behind the funnel at the rear of the island. Same might happen with the pair of 30mm AK 230 and Bofors 40mm. But then again, why not a beefier self defence fit e.g. doubling the number of Barak missiles and directors and/or using AK 630 or maybe even 76mm naval guns (as will be on her newer companion ship IAC)?

Barak may be. Ak-230 and Bofors, not likely. Having more AK-630 would be good. But lack of medium to long range missile is not good.

By the 76mm naval gun do you mean to have it for naval gun fire support or for using AD shells? If at all a naval gun is needed for fire support, its better to have higher caliber and longer ranged A-192 or Ak-130. If its for AD, then a dedicated CIWS would be the best option.

I hope the IAC don't keep that 76mm SRGM. It was all that Italian sales guys who wanted to sell as many units as possible with their carrier design. Instead I'd prefer having Barak or other AD systems getting installed on IAC.

[Obi Wan Russell]

FYI on a carrier it isn't called ATC (Air Traffic Control), it is normally referred to as FLYCO (Flying Control Office). ATC is a landlubbers term...:diablo:

[JangBoGo]

^^
Thanks. ATC was the term used with the first post that mentioned about it and it got carried along to this thread.

Russian's does not use that term AFAIK.

[JangBoGo]

Article on INS Vikramaditya, courtesy Trishul blog..

20 million man-hours for refit and refurbishment

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1lg5Pj03ze...QE/s1600/9.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uLQQxdOUDM...0/s1600/10.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sLFQ4kq71o...Q/s1600/11.jpg

[Wanshan]

But lack of medium to long range missile is not good.

By the 76mm naval gun do you mean to have it for naval gun fire support or for using AD shells?

USN begs to differ re. the missile, I think. As do most operators of Harrier or F-35 capable LHA/D (RAM, mostly, if a SAM at all)

76: No, just a big a$$ AAA/ASuW gun that is available. If need be it could be combination with Oto Melara's Dart/Davide/Strales. I think there's just the two stern positions where you could park a gun on Vikramaditya now...

[Witcha]

Why the need for 76mm guns anyway? The Vikramaditya isn't an LHD; for personal defense against missiles a good CIWS would suit it best. If not Kashtan I'd strongly recommend the Pantsir-ME when it gets cleared for export.

Article on INS Vikramaditya, courtesy Trishul blog..

20 million man-hours for refit and refurbishment

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-1lg5Pj03ze...QE/s1600/9.jpg
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uLQQxdOUDM...0/s1600/10.jpg
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-sLFQ4kq71o...Q/s1600/11.jpg

That blog always has interesting articles full of details, but sometimes I don't know where the facts end and Prasun Sengupta's fabrications begin. Thankfully everything seems accurate in this case...

[JangBoGo]

USN begs to differ re. the missile, I think. As do most operators of Harrier or F-35 capable LHA/D (RAM, mostly, if a SAM at all)

76: No, just a big a$$ AAA/ASuW gun that is available. If need be it could be combination with Oto Melara's Dart/Davide/Strales. I think there's just the two stern positions where you could park a gun on Vikramaditya now...

But Indian Navy cannot be compared, especially to the like of US.
Some Indians still think Indian Navy have a never ending list of combatants. But in reality, if we try attaching the combatants for INS Vikramaditya & IAC, like the USN...there won't be any good ships left in the Navy for other duties.

There is lack of combatants and support vessels in the Navy for expansion but the bigg arses are playing with multi-billion dollar deal for P-8 as if everything else is perfect. Not a single order for major surface combatants have gone for the last few years and the guys are in the never ending thinking process of planning for project A, B, C, D...

For that reason alone, I prefer our carriers to have its own medium-long range or close-in AD weapons.

There is enough space in the stern of INS Vikramadity as you mentioned. But my personal view is it would be a waste to install artillery over there as IN don't have good enough ships with decent load of AD missiles to cover a carrier ar$e. I'd prefer AD missiles instead of guns.

[JangBoGo]

That blog always has interesting articles full of details, but sometimes I don't know where the facts end and Prasun Sengupta's fabrications begin. Thankfully everything seems accurate in this case...

that happens but in his case i think it has more to do with some personal matters with certain forum and members that spread out. whatever it is, it does not matter. We don't have to take everything on face value and can crosscheck it with other sources or when time comes we can refer back to see the accuracy of his reporting. But approaching his blog with a prior biased mentality is what I don't do...

[Wanshan]

Why the need for 76mm guns anyway? The Vikramaditya isn't an LHD; for personal defense against missiles a good CIWS would suit it best. If not Kashtan I'd strongly recommend the Pantsir-ME when it gets cleared for export.

Well, who said NEED. The only NEED is defensive armament. THen looking at what's available. The 76 Oto is usefull as longer range AAA and on the plus side, it can be and is made in India. AK630s by contrast would be imports. And by themselves not a CIWS. 'A good CIWS' in the IN means at least a pair of VLUs for Barak missiles plus a pair of AK230 or AK630s and a pair of Elta radar fire directors....

I think Kashtan (and like) was ruled out for this ship quite some time ago already.... it certainly isn't installed on any of the above pics, while the remainder of equipment does seem to be installed. Hence the armament speculation in the first place..

ps: USN LHA/Ds are intented for use as sea control ships as well, embarking some 20 Harrier 2 and not much else in that role.