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Thread: PLAAF Thread 15

  1. #661
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    Not sure its the AL-31FM1.
    I read somewhere that the Export AL-31F and AL-31FN has been upgraded with both more thust and TBO life.

    Anyway, it could be more about the designation than the physical difference.
    Thanks

  2. #662
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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Is AL-31FM-1 even cleared for export?
    Quote Originally Posted by haavarla View Post
    Not sure its the AL-31FM1.
    I read somewhere that the Export AL-31F and AL-31FN has been upgraded with both more thust and TBO life.

    Anyway, it could be more about the designation than the physical difference.
    The exact designation is unclear. But it is rumored to be developed by Salut for the J-20 like the AL-31FN but has max thrust around 14000 kgf (so thats about 137 kN). Designation is anyone's guess. flateric mentioned that CAC officials have visited Salut for engines (excluding J-10), and maya @ SDF clearly said its an AL-31 variant. Even Hui Tong initially stated the its a 14000 kgf engine from Salut, but he changed that to WS-1X.

  3. #663
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    I would agree that it's almost certainly an AL-31F of some description and given previous Chinese ties to Salut, the latter is more likely than not the supplier. Apart from externally applied coatings, even the silver nozzles are a dead ringer for the AL-31F, as are the fuel dump method and (like martinez has pointed out) the start sequence.

  4. #664
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    Quote Originally Posted by QuantumFX View Post
    The exact designation is unclear. But it is rumored to be developed by Salut for the J-20 like the AL-31FN but has max thrust around 14000 kgf (so thats about 137 kN). Designation is anyone's guess. flateric mentioned that CAC officials have visited Salut for engines (excluding J-10), and maya @ SDF clearly said its an AL-31 variant. Even Hui Tong initially stated the its a 14000 kgf engine from Salut, but he changed that to WS-1X.
    Thanks for info!
    I guess export restriction would not necessarily apply to such an engine, given than 117S is more powerful and is certainly going to be available for export this decade.
    http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/9098/rsz11rsz3807.jpg

  5. #665
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    If the AL-31FM-1 engine was designed to upgrade the Su-27 with Al-31F, no chance they are used with the J-20, bcs gear box and APU is top mounted whereas the J-20 has engine with bottom mounted gear box, just remember that.
    <Find a job you like doing, and you'll never have to work a day in your life>

  6. #666
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    (PLAN J-10N?)

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2012..._112064359.htm

    军报披露:海军航空兵列装歼-10 战机

    2012年05月30日
    Republic of Korea Air Force KF-16 missing photographs

    http://www.f-16.net/aircraft-databas...irforce/ROKAF/

  7. #667
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Chan View Post
    (PLAN J-10N?)

    http://news.xinhuanet.com/photo/2012..._112064359.htm

    军报披露:海军航空兵列装歼-10 战机

    2012年05月30日

    Not really new ! These are the J-10AH and SH from the PLANAF (4. Div / 12th Reg) based at Feidong.

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  8. #668
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    www.thebaseleg.com - Base Leg Aviation News and Photography

  9. #669
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    Question

    Any info ehat this could be .... and where this "thing" was taken ???

    Could be simply a mock-up, a theme-park model or something similar simple , since I can't think that SAC will travel its future stealthy fighter simply thru the streets.

    Or is that an L-15 trainer ???

    Anway interesting,
    Deino
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  10. #670
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    I think you may be onto something with the L-15 idea - looks a lot like somebody faked an in-flight photo of a banked L-15 to obfuscate it and then superimposed it over a flat bed transporter. It doesn't make sense to transport an aircraft by road in that state of assembly, you'd at least want to take the wings off (BTW, while the vertical tail is gone that is one of the areas on the image which most strongly seems to have been tampered with). I'm not sure the supporting trestle is plausible either.

  11. #671
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    Strange, really strange but following some posts at the CDF, there are however some differences to exclude an L-15 (LERX, cockpit ... ) .... and especially that tight securety on this parking place crowded by military security and so on ... .

    Besides that it is reportedly indeed from SAC on the way to Tianjin. ... but why in Tianjin !

    Anway interesting,
    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  12. #672
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    Filter the Clutter, make it clear.
    Attached Images Attached Images  
    The truth usually between two extremes, the key is when and where.

  13. #673
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    Maybe this one......???



    Mockup Raptor at the shooting gallery inside the aircraft carrier at the Oriental Green Boat Park, Shanghai......

    Ken
    Flanker Freak & Russian Aviation Enthusiast.
    Flankers (& others) website at :-
    http://flankers.co.uk/

  14. #674
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    I think you may be onto something with the L-15 idea - looks a lot like somebody faked an in-flight photo of a banked L-15 to obfuscate it and then superimposed it over a flat bed transporter. It doesn't make sense to transport an aircraft by road in that state of assembly, you'd at least want to take the wings off (BTW, while the vertical tail is gone that is one of the areas on the image which most strongly seems to have been tampered with). I'm not sure the supporting trestle is plausible either.
    Look at the pixels near the car windshield.

  15. #675
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flanker_man View Post
    Maybe this one......???



    Mockup Raptor at the shooting gallery inside the aircraft carrier at the Oriental Green Boat Park, Shanghai......

    Ken
    Mock-up doesnt need tight security measures like this or temporarily close expressway, so it must be something military.

  16. #676
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    Here's another image ... and an estimation on its length !
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SAC mystery J-xy maybe 6.jpg 
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ID:	206262   Click image for larger version. 

Name:	SAC mystery J-xy maybe 7.jpg 
Views:	1125 
Size:	137.0 KB 
ID:	206263  
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  17. #677
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    Quote Originally Posted by TR1 View Post
    Thanks for info!
    I guess export restriction would not necessarily apply to such an engine, given than 117S is more powerful and is certainly going to be available for export this decade.
    117S has been cleared for export several years ago.

  18. #678
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    A mockup doesn’t require a whole SWAT team to guard and express way sealed for the convoy.

    A mockup should be easily dismantled and stuffed into a container for transport

    The main wing is forged 1 piece with the fuselage, because of whole piece is too large to be stuffed into air lifter or container. It has to be shipped via road.

    It’s heading towards North West of China, for static test most likely,

    For those showing persistent “PS” syndrome towards everything Chinese, The reality is every PSed stuff in their mouth becomes real in past decade, this time won’t be any exception either

    SAC’s F60 finally transforming from model to reality:



    However, the prototype can be accepted by PLAAF or PLANAF to become J21 or not is still everybody’s guess.
    Last edited by Pinko; 22nd June 2012 at 15:17.

  19. #679
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deino View Post
    Here's another image ... and an estimation on its length !
    I have to agree Deino, for photo analysis sticking it in a carpark with marked spaces and surrounded by vehicles of known size like that Audi is a boon in working out its size.

    I also agree with Pinko, by in large Photoshopping has become less usual amongst Chinese types in recent years.
    Because sometimes in life we need a bit of fun

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  20. #680
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post

    SAC’s F60 finally transforming from model to reality:

    You are aware this photo was of a model/RC plane (for a UAV!) made by students for the "AVIC UAV Cup"?
    Last edited by Sintra; 22nd June 2012 at 17:39.

  21. #681
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    Why did people put a manned plane in a UAV design competition if those students are contestants?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sintra View Post
    You are aware this photo was of a model/RC plane (for a UAV!) made by students for the "AVIC UAV Cup"?

  22. #682
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    Thanks for the additional images - seems it is real after all! I can now see that what I thought were PS artifacts are actually parts of the coarse net which is holding the camouflage cloth in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post
    A mockup doesn’t require a whole SWAT team to guard and express way sealed for the convoy.
    It easily might, if it is closely representative of a sensitive item. However, in that case the corollary is that a real project exists, which would make even a mock-up almost as big a revelation as if it was the actual article, granted. A more interesting question here is why they aren't moving it at night if they are so concerned about it being seen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post
    A mockup should be easily dismantled and stuffed into a container for transport
    So are most real aircraft (see below).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post
    The main wing is forged 1 piece with the fuselage, because of whole piece is too large to be stuffed into air lifter or container. It has to be shipped via road.
    Might be, although that approach is somewhat unusual - most modern fighters retain separate wings, including the T-50, F-22, Typhoon and Rafale. However, at least the first two are considerably larger than this aircraft at some 15m, a length that puts it in the same ball park as the F-35 with its single piece upper wing/fuselage panel (so I guess it's possible).

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post
    For those showing persistent “PS” syndrome towards everything Chinese, The reality is every PSed stuff in their mouth becomes real in past decade, this time won’t be any exception either
    *cough*

    http://www.centurychina.com/plaboard...sed_-_part.jpg

    Last edited by Trident; 22nd June 2012 at 18:18.

  23. #683
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    Latest info so far ... that convoy did not stop in Tianjin but moved on and the currently most likely final destination is indeed the CFTE at Xi'an-Yanglian !!!

    The only sad fact on this is that there are nearly no spotter-possibilities.

    Deino
    ...

    He was my North, my South, my East and West,
    My working week and my Sunday rest,
    My noon, my midnight, my talk, my song;
    I thought that love would last forever; I was wrong.

    The stars are not wanted now; put out every one:
    Pack up the moon and dismantle the sun;
    Pour away the ocean and sweep up the woods:
    For nothing now can ever come to any good.
    -------------------------------------------------
    W.H.Auden (1945)

  24. #684
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pinko View Post
    A mockup doesn’t require a whole SWAT team to guard and express way sealed for the convoy.

    A mockup should be easily dismantled and stuffed into a container for transport

    The main wing is forged 1 piece with the fuselage, because of whole piece is too large to be stuffed into air lifter or container. It has to be shipped via road.

    It’s heading towards North West of China, for static test most likely,

    For those showing persistent “PS” syndrome towards everything Chinese, The reality is every PSed stuff in their mouth becomes real in past decade, this time won’t be any exception either

    SAC’s F60 finally transforming from model to reality:



    However, the prototype can be accepted by PLAAF or PLANAF to become J21 or not is still everybody’s guess.
    lol wishful thinking. just because its not PS doesn't mean its a stealth airplane. It could be a model, it could be a trainer, it could be something else. Given the size of the aircraft in comparison to the truck, i'm leaning more towards trainer or another light aircraft.. or a model

  25. #685
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    Quote Originally Posted by davidwangqi View Post
    Why did people put a manned plane in a UAV design competition if those students are contestants?
    It isnt manned. It´s a "fighter looking" RC Model. It might be SAC equivalent to this:


  26. #686
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    lol wishful thinking. just because its not PS doesn't mean its a stealth airplane. It could be a model, it could be a trainer, it could be something else. Given the size of the aircraft in comparison to the truck, i'm leaning more towards trainer or another light aircraft.. or a model
    Or something in the line of a demonstrator...
    I can remember an awfull lot of identical reactions to the first grainy images of the J-20, or the Xianglong, or this:


  27. #687
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trident View Post
    …It easily might, if it is closely representative of a sensitive item. However, in that case the corollary is that a real project exists, which would make even a mock-up almost as big a revelation as if it was the actual article, granted. A more interesting question here is why they aren't moving it at night if they are so concerned about it being seen.
    Here is the grainy Handphone quality image taken at night time, obviously the sheer urgency makes the trip to be done day and night



    The different angel does reveal more details of the plane

    Might be, although that approach is somewhat unusual - most modern fighters retain separate wings, including the T-50, F-22, Typhoon and Rafale. However, at least the first two are considerably larger than this aircraft at some 15m, a length that puts it in the same ball park as the F-35 with its single piece upper wing/fuselage panel (so I guess it's possible).
    The large size of heavy new gen fighters like F22 or T50 or J20 simply makes integrated wings and fuselage much more difficult and costly. Though I won’t comment on eurocanards due to they are designed much earlier. Such technology is more applicable in medium aircrafts like the F35, see how the wing is mated with fuselage:


    So no surprise, the F35 is also shipped in the same fashion:

  28. #688
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    Quote Originally Posted by Italy View Post
    lol wishful thinking. just because its not PS doesn't mean its a stealth airplane. It could be a model, it could be a trainer, it could be something else. Given the size of the aircraft in comparison to the truck, i'm leaning more towards trainer or another light aircraft.. or a model
    Judged by ur words, I feel very sorry about the name u used for your handle ID

  29. #689
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    The angle of swept looks significantly larger than F-35.
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    Last edited by emile; 23rd June 2012 at 12:33.
    The truth usually between two extremes, the key is when and where.

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    Another one.


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