China's upcoming 5th G fighter--J-20 prototype is ready

[CAT1]

if I remember correctly, J-10's 1st prototype was with in 100 kg of its designed weight. the same team that does J-20 now has gone through now 2.5 programs (J-10, FC-1, J-10B), in less than 20 years. I would guess the probability that it would be overshoot its weights target would be kinda low.

planeform area may look deceptively small. and its sides are broad single wedge, and with an top wing design. thus give one the impression of "heavy".

Agreed! China has proved its rapid advancement in this field. The days when it produced overwieght, underpowered and technologicaly obsolete fighters are long gone.
At the moment all we have to go on the J-20 are incomplete visuals - comparing visuals alone it more than holds its own against any of its peers.

[i.e.]

Agreed! China has proved its rapid advancement in this field. The days when it produced overwieght, underpowered and technologicaly obsolete fighters are long gone.
At the moment all we have to go on the J-20 are incomplete visuals - comparing visuals alone it more than holds its own against any of its peers.

they are still making two seater Q-5s. that's an " overwieght, underpowered and technologicaly obsolete fighters", not everything in china is shiny.
There are still alot of legacy programs that they will keep in pipeline for nothing if just to keep the manufactures alive.

but have no doubt they are making a big pushing. order of technical competence in tactical platforms: CF-SF-XF-Nanchang-Guiyang.
with the last two holding on to older programs/derivatives. but have their sights on UAVs.

SF is executing the J-15, XF is ... well.

[i.e.]

btw, you guys know that Chengdu has a globalhawk-esque UAV program right?

[MSphere]

SR-71 does so reasonablly well at M3

SR-71 was visible on air traffic control radars at hundreds of miles distance, even with transponder turned off.

[i.e.]

SR-71 was visible on air traffic control radars at hundreds of miles distance, even with transponder turned off.

therefore the qualifier "reasonably". a reasonably good attempt was made based on 50-60s technology.

you guys can not be seriously thinking that stealth and speed are incompatible do you?

[i.e.]

Oh hell some body got a taxi video. up close. :diablo:

[KYL]

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101229/161986565.html

The future of China's fifth-generation stealth fighter

Mod Edit: Please do not cut and paste whole articles from other other sources, especially ones that are clearly marked as copyright. This puts us in potential breach of UK law.

[i.e.]

http://en.rian.ru/analysis/20101229/161986565.html

The future of China's fifth-generation stealth fighter

I can not believe some one intelligent wrote this.

anyone who glance around these material knows WS10 is not a AL31 clone for one.
and China probably has better flight control computers HW/SW for its fighters.
Material wise they are making a huge push in composites. as well as metals and forging facilities.
Radar... well, any one who read anything in this field should know 14th institute in nanjing and what it is worth.

china may be lagging in some capabilities. but they have both the width and depth in their programs.

[quadbike]

Sour Russian grapes.

[mupp]

"The J-20 fighter was produced nearly 20 year after the U.S. YF-22 (the prototype of the mass-produced F-22A), 17 years after the Russian MiG-1.44 (MiG-MFI, or Multifunctional Frontline Fighter), and 14 after Russia's S.37 (Su-47)."

Isn't that a bit of a stupid statement. Neither the Mig nor the Su were ever built beyond test articles.

Is he trying to imply Russia has what 2, 3 "5th gen" fighters to everyone else's 1

[GoldenDragon]

CF-SF-XF-Nanchang-Guiyang.
with the last two holding on to older programs/derivatives. but have their sights on UAVs.

Nanchang is now Hongdu. It was traditionally one of the most innovative Chinese design/manufacturing houses. Usually low funded projects that turned out pretty well.

Their line of products -- CJ6, Q-5 and K-8 -- actually have a pretty good reputation in relation to funding.

[HappyFag]

Experts call it .................
The views expressed in this article are the author's and do not necessarily represent those of RIA Novosti.

I think those experts are in for a big surprize.

[i.e.]

Nanchang is now Hongdu. It was traditionally one of the most innovative Chinese design/manufacturing houses. Usually low funded projects that turned out pretty well.

Their line of products -- CJ6, Q-5 and K-8 -- actually have a pretty good reputation in relation to funding.

Yes, but their Q-5 line is winding down and L-15 will not be a combat fighter replacement for Q-5 or the lowend .
they ( meaning their tactical fighter R/D capability) can not subsist on L-15.
They are working on UCAVs.

Interesting there was a idea to traineriz the FC-1 (twin seat, more structure life) flowing around but L-15 won out.

Guizhou is the more vulnerable one. I would rather see that capability rolled into Chengdu or something like that. they already co-operate on the FT-2000 project anyways.

[GoldenDragon]

Yes, but their Q-5 line is winding down and L-15 will not be a combat fighter replacement for Q-5 or the lowend .
they ( meaning their tactical fighter R/D capability) can not subsist on L-15.
They are working on UCAVs.

The L15 is the followon to the K-8 (arguably the most success Chinese export) and will have a customer base both domestic and overseas. Nanchang/Hongdu do compete with Guizhou domestically.

The main function of both firms is assembling trainers not UCAVs -- which at any rate are years in the future unless you are talking about re-purposed J-5 target drones (Ba-5) produced by Shenyang.

[vikasrehman]

A ? Though question persist & will do so for time to come, i think right NOW most would agree that there is SOME/MORE substance to china's 5G fighter project than-lets say-before the release of these pics. But my question is not about that substance. Rather what is the chinese motivation? The release of these pics & their pace is mind boggling-surely they could have kept it under wraps-when compared with other defence projects. So what's different this time?

Any theories?:-)

[Multirole]

A ? Though question persist & will do so for time to come, i think right NOW most would agree that there is SOME/MORE substance to china's 5G fighter project than-lets say-before the release of these pics. But my question is not about that substance. Rather what is the chinese motivation? The release of these pics & their pace is mind boggling-surely they could have kept it under wraps-when compared with other defence projects. So what's different this time?

Any theories?:-)

There's a general trend of being more open with military projects. China is becoming more confident of it's place in the world, and showing off it's successes let's the world know China should be treated like a great power.

I think Chinese leaders are tired of the US not treating China as an equal, of building regional coalitions and doing wargames like they expect to patrol off China's coast forever, of the EU arms embargo, of people who still holds the obsolete paradigm that China's military industry would remain perpetually third rate. I think they want to send the message that they can't be contained, so show some respect.

This is much more valuable than secrecy of various projects, which to be honest we would expect the world's intelligence networks to know a great deal more than us internet watchers. JXX probably has been photographed from space for years.

[GoldenDragon]

A ? Though question persist & will do so for time to come, i think right NOW most would agree that there is SOME/MORE substance to china's 5G fighter project than-lets say-before the release of these pics. But my question is not about that substance. Rather what is the chinese motivation?
Any theories?:-)

It could be as simple as a changing and (explosively) wealthier society becoming ever more armed with cellphones and digital cameras that can take pictures and upload them on the internet.

It was far easier to keep things quiet in a poorer society when it wasn't the world's largest internet population.

It's probably impossible to control 400 million internet users.

The release of these pics & their pace is mind boggling-surely they could have kept it under wraps-when compared with other defence projects. So what's different this time?

Maybe they couldn't keep it under wraps. Why assume that it could? We saw fuzzy pictures of J-10s from Chengdu in the 1990s and that was way before the explosion of the internet in China. Now, it could simply be the impossibility of keeping every one of hundreds of millions internet users from uploading pictures.

That said, all these pictures (and the J-10 ones before) were released in the Chinese language web world which is for all intent and purposes disconnected from the English speaking one we reside in on AFM. Every picture in this thread depended on a Chinese speaker transferring it from the Chinese world to the English one.

So if there was a purpose behind it, it was a message to the Chinese people first. Maybe it's a nationalistic thing. But nationalism would be far better served by an official announcement.

Maybe the J-20 is already old news just like the J-10 was and the J-15 after that because more classified projects are proceeding in secrecy in a desert in the Northwest somewhere.

But the simplest explanation is that Chengdu is a major metropolitan area with seven million people in a fast changing society that is wired with broadband with digital cameras and cellphones everywhere. And CAC is smack in the middle of that.

[mabie]

A ? Though question persist & will do so for time to come, i think right NOW most would agree that there is SOME/MORE substance to china's 5G fighter project than-lets say-before the release of these pics. But my question is not about that substance. Rather what is the chinese motivation? The release of these pics & their pace is mind boggling-surely they could have kept it under wraps-when compared with other defence projects. So what's different this time?

Any theories?:-)

I think it has to do with prestige,both for foreign and domestic audiences. The holy grail of military aviation is advanced gen5 fighters, aniche dominated by the US and more recently challenged by the Russians. The actual capabilities of the platforms aren't a primary concern at this point IMO. The US has such a big headstart but at least you now have a stake in the game and are no longer just kibbitzing from the sidelines. Given enough time and money, the PAK-FA and J-20 may turn out to be capable platforms. Perception is important.

[insomnia.delhi]

A ? Though question persist & will do so for time to come, i think right NOW most would agree that there is SOME/MORE substance to china's 5G fighter project than-lets say-before the release of these pics. But my question is not about that substance. Rather what is the chinese motivation? The release of these pics & their pace is mind boggling-surely they could have kept it under wraps-when compared with other defence projects. So what's different this time?

Any theories?:-)

If they really wanted to release information, they would do so on a website and discuss the goals of the program, the expected timeline of the program, the expected cost of the program, and release detailed pictures and videos, which hide things they deem as sensitive (if any such things are photographed or documented).

However this is China, a nation with a long history of being a controlled society, with one of the worlds most tremendous economic change bringing about some limited change in governance(in terms of information control), hence i think they will have to learn to give out more information about what it is that they are doing with the nations money.

To give an example, the JF-17 project had lots of information about it released online through Pakistan, however the J-10 had none, i think that will change once the J-10 starts service with the PAF(unless PRC makes it a condition that no information shall be shared in public).

However they did not bother containing photographs of the J-10B or other military program taken by the enthusiasts and or providing staged photographs to the enthusiasts (remember PRC has the largest internet population online and they recognize the mediums strength), which is a similar story with other military programs, i can not say that is being very open, however it is for sure not being downright oppressive.

[vikasrehman]

^A very plausible theory indeed. And might i add, quite similar to my own line of thinking. :-) Though, i must say that this strategy could potentially shift the burden of proof to the chinese, i.e. in the past the chinese could simply say 'i have it & its up to you to believe what i say', but if they are 'demanding' equal-equal stay, they will have to 'show more openly' that they have it. As an afterthought, the latter could turn the whole thing into an open cold war/arms race.

Any other theories anyone?

[insomnia.delhi]

Black paint is for high visibility against a blue sky. Check put telemetry laden typhoon photos from around 2001

Thats why i think they will fly this bird around at night(on account of all the secrecy, do you recall many prototypes painted black?). There was also the rafale black prototype, looked sexy, like a curvy lady in a black dress.

As far as aerodynamic concepts go, but having a concept and having the needed technology to match it, are quite different. The US has advanced enough RAM to carry through such designs...the Russians don't (so the Russian solution is purely for aerodynamics and simplicity)...ie its not more "advanced" if you can't meet the performance levels of the "outdated" design (in RCS terms)

Right, the Russians don't cause you were there during all the lab tests, eh!

I hope this is the cockpit, it looks damn clean... very F-35ish+ the HUD (and the mouse lol).



Its the prototype, so changes could occur by the time the production model comes up.
Is there a chance that they are testing some avionics on the J-10B program?

[J-20 Hotdog]

There's a general trend of being more open with military projects. China is becoming more confident of it's place in the world, and showing off it's successes let's the world know China should be treated like a great power.

I think Chinese leaders are tired of the US not treating China as an equal, of building regional coalitions and doing wargames like they expect to patrol off China's coast forever, of the EU arms embargo, of people who still holds the obsolete paradigm that China's military industry would remain perpetually third rate. I think they want to send the message that they can't be contained, so show some respect.

This is much more valuable than secrecy of various projects, which to be honest we would expect the world's intelligence networks to know a great deal more than us internet watchers. JXX probably has been photographed from space for years.

this aircraft is a part of a collection of Chinese weaponry that will be used to enforce chinese claims.

so in the short term:
a stealthy high endurance aircraft will be useful in this area

as China's first goal is to militarily kick out Vietnam, Philippines, Malaysia, Indonesia, and Brunei from the South China Sea which they say they own. This is first because these countries have minimal naval capabilities and lack strong US support. But Japan will be next, followed by South Korea as they extend their eez zone further eastward at the expense of South Korea.

in the long term:
they will probably seek a peaceful solution for Taiwan, but will ultimately plan on conquering Mongolia, annexing Eastern Russia, and prepare for a long cold war with India, with the long term goal of annexing Bhutan and Southern Tibet.

[insomnia.delhi]

this aircraft is a part of a collection of Chinese weaponry that will be used to enforce chinese claims....

Right, and become isolated from the world market before you can say south, china or sea......

The worlds not that simple anymore, PRC will keep on trying to avoid any moves that make it out to be a belligerent power and hence avoid any regional and global alliance against it, a much bigger issue will be to make sure global markets are open for trade.

And so does everyone else.

http://www.af.mil/information/index.asp
http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/
etc. etc.
The thing is they have a very different way of communicating their information, and do not face a pressure for justifying their funding to the population, i think the higher the degree of transparency that can be achieved in military affairs, the better it is (leads to a more effective and less corrupt organisation).

[franc]

Oh, my god, its 21 pages now, approxi 3 pages per day since this a/c published online.
If our memory works, this a/c we should quite familiar to since its model unclassified several years ago. Why it provoked emotion so much, I wonder.

Have you ever noticed this only an enlarged fuselage of twin engine F-35 with 1.44 wing added, nothing new.

Mixing subsistant thing from others always does piece you created no good especially you made it in simple way.

When you say Rafale inherited Mirage, yes, it is, but only macroprofile, even the type of wing are not simplized took from Mirage, and rest each of them are different. When we say PAKFA is a Raptorski, you may say it rightly, but can you point exactly which part of Su-50 is same with F-22? You want to, but when you want to, each part you want to point contains quite a lot difference.

Now we can see the entire fuselage of J-20 merely is a scaled copy of F-35 and its wing shape is a copy of 1.44, maybe the aerodynemic profile of the wing is innovated by Chinese. However, just as member posted, the testing process of PAKFA also tried canards layout, why Russian do not like canards? Why the canards on J-20 was made as anhedral? Pelvic fin has been seen even, makes it a very interceptor back to last centery.

Oh, its canopy look like F-22, does this means advantage to us?

[frankvw]

Thread closed for clean up. Will be reopened shortly.

Clean up completed. GA

[J-20 Hotdog]

[J-20 Hotdog]

[Grey Area]

Right, that's the trash taken out.....

Gentlemen, this thread is supposed to be about the J20 - a most interesting and timely subject.

If any of you genuinely feel unable to get through the day without indulging in childish nationalistic squabbling or annoying other members, then go and do so somewhere else because such behaviour will not be tolerated here.

As always, I offer my apologies to the sensible majority.

Please continue the discussion....

Regards

GA

[JosephManson]

A close look at the gear door

[CAT1]

they are still making two seater Q-5s. that's an " overwieght, underpowered and technologicaly obsolete fighters", not everything in china is shiny.
There are still alot of legacy programs that they will keep in pipeline for nothing if just to keep the manufactures alive.

but have no doubt they are making a big pushing. order of technical competence in tactical platforms: CF-SF-XF-Nanchang-Guiyang.
with the last two holding on to older programs/derivatives. but have their sights on UAVs.

SF is executing the J-15, XF is ... well.

I was not saying they had stopped production of all old designs -- my point was that you can count on new variants to be as you put it 'shiny'.