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Thread: Dornier 17 - RAF Museum Recovery From Goodwin Sands

  1. #1
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    Dornier 17 - RAF Museum Recovery From Goodwin Sands

    Good to see the Times yesterday devoting almost a whole page to this.

    Mark

    http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/n...cfm?headline=W W 2 Bomber on Goodwin Sands

  2. #2
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    That's very exciting news - well done to the RAFM - perhaps a return to the old dynamic days of the past?

  3. #3
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    Ref post #2. Any central MoD funding may well be chopped in the current round of salami slicing.
    And all pigs are cleared for take-off!
    Resmoroh
    Meteorology is a science: good meteorology is an art.

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    Dont think it will be at Legends for a while
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  5. #5
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    Amazing images, certainly.

    However, recovery will surely be complex, problematical and expensive. But good luck to them!

    When 360Productions for the BBC were looking at subjects for the imminent Dig1940 series, this was on the agenda as a potential site to cover.

    Interestingly, I am aware that divers have regularly been down to an inverted Do 17 in this area quite recently and recovered plenty of items from the cockpit area, including a stash of five MG15 machine guns. Quite a treasure trove seems to surface quite regularly. I gather that all of these artefacts have been given to a Kent based museum that specialises in artefacts from 1940. I wonder if this is the same aeroplane? Bit of a coincidence if not.

    Also, interesting to note that the RAFM are showing an increased interest in recently recovered artefacts from 1940 'digs' and have declared an intention to 'retain' a number of items recovered from digs carried out under PMR Licence in recent months. Are the RAFM planning an expanded exhibition/collection of wreck recovered items for the Battle of Britain Museum perhaps?

  6. #6
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    The Times reports...'recovery is planned for early next year'.

    Mark

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    Stunning news as far as I'm concerned - is the Times' page on the internet?

  8. #8
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    Times article is on Internet but behind a paywall I am afraid.

    btw article says guns ate missing and 'may have been recovered from dives'
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  9. #9
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    Fantastic news.

    If they can pull it off, that will fill a yawning gap in the list of surviving WWII combat types , as well as Battle of Britain combatants.

    DD

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    You're telling me DD. I often think of the Dornier's absence as leaving a huge gap in surviving WWII aircraft. Imagine the Dornier alongside a Ju88 and Heinkel at the RAF museum!

    All we need now is an airworthy Ju87.

  11. #11
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    Yes it would look good, but they would need to put a few more light bulbs up so we could see them. I for one dont have night vision goggles.
    Last edited by Merlin Madness; 29th August 2010 at 18:22.
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  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Resmoroh View Post
    Ref post #2. Any central MoD funding may well be chopped in the current round of salami slicing.
    And all pigs are cleared for take-off!
    Resmoroh
    Let's hope Resmoroh's wrong
    Last edited by Whitley_Project; 29th August 2010 at 19:00.

  13. #13
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    Interesting and very expensive to recover and the restoration very very expensive. If it is covered by sand then I wonder if they will build a coffer dam and therefore not be chased off by the tide twice in 24 hours. I am having the thought that it forced landed on the sands at low tide and that is why it is mostly intact.

    also just as interesting was that the RAFM is claiming items from recoveries, so that could mean the already recovered weapons will be sent to the RAFM.

    This is an fascinating contrast to the P38 in North wales.

  14. #14
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    I'd rather it was a wreck laid out on a pile of shingle at Hendon than not available for viewing at all...
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    I'll second that.

  16. #16
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    Thanks for the pointer Mark12

    Cheeky request, but can anybody provide the full Peter Davis article from The Times yesterday? Its only available to view online if you shell out £1 for a 24hrs pass...

    Cheers
    Peter D Evans
    LEMB Administrator

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    Quote Originally Posted by Robbo View Post
    I hope this doesn't become another wreck laid out on a pile of shingle at Hendon.
    To be honest Rob, what else could they do with it ? It's not likely to be in pristine condition.
    Ian

    MAKING A LIVING IN PHOTOGRAPHY BUT ONLY ON MY WIFE'S TALENTS

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    Quote Originally Posted by scotavia View Post
    ..........I am having the thought that it forced landed on the sands at low tide and that is why it is mostly intact........
    I draw the impression from that picture that it is inverted and therefore had ditched, turning over as it sank.

    Roger Smith.
    A Blenheim, Beaufighter and Beaufort - together in one Museum. Who'd have thought that possible in 1967?

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    Chances are that it may end up at the resoration centre at Cosford, looks to be my lucky day as I am moving back to Shropshire about ten miles away amd my mate John works in the restoration workshops.....;-)

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    Anyone have an ID on the airframe?

    TIA
    Dave

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    According to The Times article by Peter Davis, it was a Do17Z, WNr.1160 belonging to 7 Staffel, III./KG3 which took off from St Trond in Belgium and their mission to attack Fighter Command airfields in Essex.

    On August 26th 1940, this Do17Z was piloted by Feldwebel Willi Effmert, navigator Herman Ritzel, wireless operator Helmut Reinhardt and bomb aimer Heinz Huhn. While flying above cloud over the Strait of Dover the Dornier became separated from the rest of 7 Staffel. Some time after 1pm it was flying on its own when it was jumped at 13,000ft over Deal by a Boulton Paul Defiant of 264 Squadron from RAF Hornchurch.

    With both his engines hit Effmert made a wheels-up landing on the Goodwin Sands at low water and the aircraft appears to have "ground looped" just before final impact, landing on its back and killing Reinhardt and Huhn. Effmert and Ritzel survived to be captured, and spent the remainder of their war as PoWs in Canada.

    Cheers
    Peter D Evans
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  22. #22
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    Hi Peter

    Many thanks, interesting stuff-maybe they can sit it next to the Defiant in that case

    Dave

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    Would be nice to see Dave...

    Just to confirm still further, according to Genst.Gen.Qu.6.Abt.Nr.4043/40 Luftwaffe Losses, this was a Do17Z-2 listed as lost at Ramsgate...

    Kind regards
    Peter D Evans
    LEMB Administrator

  24. #24
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    Goodwin Sands? Isn't that the satellite field to RAF Dogger Bank?
    If anybody ever tells you anything about an aeroplane which is so bloody complicated you can't understand it, take it from me: It's all balls. RJM.

  25. #25
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    Thumbs up

    Sounds interesting,but what about the fortress and lancasters that were supposedly visible on the sands until a few years ago.That's according to the book Aircraft Wreckology.The more we can recover the better for future gererations.

  26. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter D Evans View Post
    .....and the aircraft appears to have "ground looped" just before final impact, landing on its back and killing Reinhardt and Huhn. .....Peter D Evans LEMB Administrator
    So, shouldn't it be considered a war grave???

    Roger Smith.
    A Blenheim, Beaufighter and Beaufort - together in one Museum. Who'd have thought that possible in 1967?

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPSmith View Post
    So, shouldn't it be considered a war grave???

    Roger Smith.
    Depends or not if the bodies were recovered. do not have access to my records at moment perhaps others here know
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  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blue_2 View Post
    I'd rather it was a wreck laid out on a pile of shingle at Hendon than not available for viewing at all...
    Well said, and I for one appreciated the Halifax and wrecked Hurricane displays for what they are.

    The RAFM interest and recovery of the Do 17 is great news.

  29. #29
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    Gefr Heinz Huhn (born 2.12.1918) is buried at Cannock Chase Block 1, Grave No 405.

    My notes (from 1979) indicated that Uffz Reinhard and Uffz Ritzel were missing when I tried to contact the survivor who was Fw Essmert, although I was given to understand that he may have stayed in the UK and married a Welsh girl and changed his name to Evans. Not the best name to track down in Wales! It will probably turn out to be a relative of a certain Peter D Evans.......!!!

    If there are missing crew technically still on board why "treat it as a war grave"? Why not recover them and attempt to identify them? In any event, unless evidence to the contrary has already surfaced, the missing crew members might not be in the wreck. Their bodies could have been thrown out or floated out - as was clearly the case with Huhn. In which case, those unaccounted for were either never found or else were washed up in the UK and buried as unidentified airmen. Certainly there were no German burials of those men in the UK.
    Last edited by Tangmere1940; 30th August 2010 at 10:50.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by RPSmith View Post
    So, shouldn't it be considered a war grave???
    Good point Roger, albeit it would be a good chance to recover and lay the crew member to rest ... using the superb War Graves Photographic Project website, this could be our Heinz Huhn... no sign of Helmut Reinhardt though...

    Cheers
    Peter D Evans
    LEMB Administrator

    Edit: seems I was posting this at the same time as Andy
    Last edited by Peter D Evans; 30th August 2010 at 10:59.

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