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Thread: Avro Shackleton WR963 Project Thread

  1. #1501
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    Reading back through this thread, I am beginning to get a very uneasy feeling about this project. Once again its gone very quiet with a lack of updates, surely it can't just be down to Rich to monitor and update/respond on here? Keeping things public is very important, and there seems to be, once again, a distinct lack of that. I appears that if I hadn't asked questions there would be even less activity of late. When reading back through I can't help but notice a flurry of activity, posts, supportive comments and the like, possibly one of the most commented threads on here! but now the trail seems very cold. Have people started to turn their backs on this once great project? I certainly am beginning to get that feeling. I was hoping someone would reply to my question, but I am not simply hanging on, so will now make alternate plans, I am not driving 80 odd miles on the off chance.
    If this project is to succeed may I strongly suggest a better public presence, otherwise I fear the worst for this beautiful Aircraft!

  2. #1502
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    Merlin - If you don't already follow it, I'd suggest checking their Facebook page for more up-to-date info. You don't have to sign up to Facebook to see what's being posted. They do seem rather more active on some other forums too

  3. #1503
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    The short answer is currently yes it is all down to Rich. And in 'real life' he is currently a very, very busy chap...
    Restoring Meteor NF.14 WS788, one rusty nail at a time...

  4. #1504
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    Ok thanks for the heads up, I'm not on Facebook, but I'll have a look if I can work it out. Seems a little unfair on Rich if he's the only one doing public relations! I see looking back he left the project previously, understandable if he's the only one in the public eye, surely there are other team members that could take on the task. Unfortunately there seems to be many rumours of various origins floating around and I feel this lack of updates doesn't help matters, I even heard they had no fuel to run last weekend! Anyway, again, thanks for the heads up.

  5. #1505
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    Merlin, just click on this link below and you should be able to see the FB page... hope it works for you.

    https://www.facebook.com/avro.shackl...SEARCH&fref=nf

  6. #1506
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    Thank you MaHone, that's most helpful, interesting reading there, it says they are open tomorrow so I'll see if I can pop by, I have made other plans but I may be able to get there, hopefully the team can reassure me as to the projects position, some very speculative information put there!
    Once again, thanks your help!

  7. #1507
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    Hi Merlin;

    I'm trying to find out if anyone's about tomorrow. I only tend to post up significant events or updates, and that has lapsed recently due to getting sent all around the country with work - my only input has been a little homework to both Shack and Meteor projects while trying to squeeze in family time too. The Facebook page tends to be the most up to date as there's acess for a number of us to update it - however the opening times thingy needs looking at as its not every Saturday. I know for a fact the team are next in on the 17th to work on the issues that plagued them last weekend (battery issues). I can put an end to one rumour for you though - 963 isn't short of fuel, she's currently carrying around 600gallons.

    Regards

    Rich

  8. #1508
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    Ok, thanks Rich for the information, if you could let me know if anyone is there, I'll try and get across, can't do next week unfortunately. And thanks for quashing the rumour, it's amazing the things you hear!
    Many thanks!

  9. #1509
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    Sorry Merlin, no-one is in tomorrow - apparently the airport is closed so they can't get any further with testing the hydraulics as they need to run at least one engine.

  10. #1510
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    Merlin, might I suggest that you visit on a day when Rich is there he will infect you with his enthusiasm and encyclopedic knowledge about everything Shackleton. I have had the pleasure of meeting him on several occasions and knew something was badly wrong when he left.
    My personal view is that if anybody is going to get a Shackleton into the air it is the present crew and they have my, regrettably, meagre support.

  11. #1511
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    Yes I would indeed like to do that, Rich if you could try and keep us informed I would like to meet you, your knowledge seems very extensive! The usual issue of trying to match days of availability up is as always difficult but I am sure our path's will cross!
    To see her flying will be something else, and I sincerely hope this can be achieved soon!

  12. #1512
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    Ok, so I've been following the Facebook page for a couple of weeks, and, well, what on earth is going on? The posts get commented on, questions get asked, people air concerns, it then seems there are various people responding under the Shackleton name, all contradicting each other! Overdue accounts are mentioned, someone says you haven't got them, someone who seems to be an ex volunteer says they left them for you, and offers to forward them, she's thanked by one person then someone else says they aren't relevant! Yesterday you post that the RAC guy who kindly helped out is under investigation due to a complaint, and that serious talks are being held about the future of the aircraft, giving the impression it's all but over, them someone comments saying they saw the guy ring the job in and all was ok! Then DW, I presume Dave Woods says all is ok, all within hours, and please feel free to make a donation! What the hell? Why would anyone donate to something that a few hours earlier was going down the pan! Then, as if by magic a vehicle show/air show is advertised this morning, only to dissapear this afternoon! Who in their right mind is gonna support this? Reading back It's cursed, and to me has scam written all over it! Just where has all the money gone? I've had my doubts for a while, but the way you carry on is downright comical! As someone said last night, stop messing about and put her in a museum. Cash Cow? It's written all over it! You no longer have my support! What a mess!

  13. #1513
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    Merlin, I'm not sure why you're bringing Facebook arguments into this thread, but posting a stream of conciousness rant like that helps nobody especially when its got no context to judge it against.

    So, I'll take it from the top (though this is the LAST time I'm going to answer you if you persist - I'm getting tired of justifying things repeatedly.)

    1. Overdue accounts. SPT's are overdue, due to things going pear shaped with the charity.
    2. Accounts mentioned by the ex-volunteer are the "Friends of WR963" accounts, and are not relevant to the charity, as "Friends" is the group set up to support WR963 and not a charity. Its a club of sorts and still up and running.
    3. The previously mentioned ex-volunteer is sending them on as its nice not to have any gaps for audits of "Friends". (not SPT).
    4. The RAC guy who helped boost the Trolley Acc got reported by two of the old team from last years troubles for acting inappropriately. The RAC investigated and found him not at fault.
    5. Vehicle show, not airshow. The flyer disappeared, and is now back, after some changes had to be made to it due to circumstances changing slightly. Why is that a problem?

    Last of all - decisions about the future of the aircraft..

    Read your post back and have a damn good look in a mirror. This is why. 'Cash cow'. 'Scam'. 'Stop messing about and put it in a museum'. The first two are insults my father - and family - have endured since various people got invited to exit stage left for not doing what they were asked to do. Every time a positive step has been made with the aircraft since, they come out again. This time they targeted a guy who was just trying to help out, putting him and his family at risk by threatening his livelihood. Thats why Dad went away and had a think again about whether it was worth continuing. To stop innocent parties falling prey to this spiteful and vindictive behaviour. Wouldn't you?? Can you blame him for being indecisive about the future of things when he'll get slated for just locking '963 up walking away and letting her corrode like the Cyprus pair, yet members of the public get spied on and harrassed if they come near?

    As for 'stop messing about and put it in a museum' I'll treat that insult with the sheer contempt it deserves and say that after all the work so far, hell will be chilling somewhere below zero before that happens.

    "You no longer have my support!"

    If ever we had it to start with, I doubt we'll miss it now if this is an example of your 'support'.


    Rich

  14. #1514
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    Keep plodding along mate, you guy's are doing a great job with the old girl and you have earned all the admiration possible from those that count..
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

  15. #1515
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    The member doth protest too much, me thinks.

    20 out of a total of 28 posts made on this thread since joining only six months ago, all, shall we say, derogatory.

    We had debates around 795 in much more difficult situation but nothing like this.

    I would suggest that some of the comments made are libelous and either evidence should be produced to substantiate them or they should be withdrawn with an apology.

    It would seem fairly obvious what is going on here.
    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

  16. #1516
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    Hear hear, and it's very welcome to have some clarity after the confusion on Facebook. And I'd also like to echo Peter's warm comments.

    Unfortunately merlin85's comments may be down in part to their repeated attempts to visit WR963. As an avid follower of the thread it does appear they have very poor luck in matching their calendar to the Shack team's and haven't been able to visit as they'd liked. Hopefully merlin85 can understand the tricky situation Rich, Dave and co are in as they have previously posted a lot of support for the project.
    Last edited by K5054NZ; 4th July 2017 at 01:44.
    "those who know keep quiet, and those who don't are frowned upon for asking." - snafu

  17. #1517
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    Angry Merlin wants to be a growler...

    Hear Hear Rich,

    I am sure I'm not the only one on this forum shaking my head at Merlin's comments. He's had a very strange way of showing support. His line is very negative and I wonder if he realises his comments are potentially damaging made so publicly should anybody misinterpret them.

    You either support something or you don't. If you don't, then have the decency to not slag it off so publicly. If it wasn't for the Woods family, '963 could have gone the same way as the Cyprus pair. Or the St Mawgan one. Find out when they are there and go and join in rather than carp from the sidelines in what seems a very selfish tone. And remember that they are volunteers with lives of their own and sometimes things change.

    Keep going Rich, others have faith.

    Scotty
    "I've never killed a man, but I've read many obituaries with a great deal of satisfaction" - Mark Twain

  18. #1518
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    Stick with it Rich and please pass on my support to your dad and you can both always get in touch if you want a chat.

    Too much of a pattern in the posts from a certain forumite!
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  19. #1519
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    Merlin is entitled to his opinion, and trying to start a conspiracy with notions such as 'too much of a pattern in the posts from a certain forumite' aren't exactly going to win him over. I agree with some of what he says in principle. Following WR963 on Facebook I was troubled to see the post about the RAC man. I was heartened to see people offering their photographs up to prove that he 'phone it in', but the whole thing seemed like dirty laundry being aired. You need to monitor and moderate your social media content better than this. Some petty squabble between the old Shackleton team and the new needs to be kept offline, and your content on Facebook or wherever has to be synced to what is posted on here, UKARSE, or whatever other forums you post to. At the moment all this raw information is spilled across Facebook, then trickles onto here via other posters.

    I think comments such as 'cash cow' and 'scam' are far fetched. I do however wonder if 963 will ever return to the air. All I've seen for the last couple of years is endless tinkering, with the engines being babied into life and various faults and niggles being dealt with along the way. It looks like a fun project, but I'm not convinced that, with all the will the world, the jump to getting her to fly can be made given the current situation. If absolutely nothing else, next time you post a close-up photo of the nose, clean the lichen off first!

  20. #1520
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    Now I know why I do not bother with FACEACHE
    It is understandable when social media has thin inane way of being able to produce FAKE NEWS and that boring someone said this you said that.
    Good luck Shacleters with the project it must be hard going.
    trouble is when you can read stuff its hard to tell what is the real truth sometime but from what I have seen here Rich is a bloody genuine guy and hats off to him, his family and the other Shackleters trying to do it right
    SMOKE SMOKE GO!
    TA out

  21. #1521
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trolly Aux
    It is understandable when social media has thin inane way of being able to produce FAKE NEWS and that boring someone said this you said that.
    This forum, and others, is just as guilty of that. Witness John Green's thread whereby he feels the need to inform us every time a Spitfire passes over Chichester harbor. There is nothing to differentiate those posts from Facebook statuses. Even more maddening are the 'I've just heard from one of my sources that something has happened at X' posts (there was one about that Spitfire that dug in in France), which implies there is a secretive inner network of those-in-the-know who carefully drip-feed information to the rest of us.

    You misunderstand, perhaps willfully, what was posted on Facebook concerning the Shackleton, and by whom. The initial post that sparked Merlin's comment was posted by the Shackleton page themselves. Somebody with administrative privileges to the "Shackleton WR963 - The Return to Flight" Facebook page posted this:

    We've just been made aware of some very disturbing news and in the interest of clarity thought we'd share it.
    On one of our recent engine runs it was found that the trolley acc Batteries were flat. Rather than waste the whole run we decided to charge them from a local RAC representative who kindly volunteered to help out.
    We've since found out that some old crew members and volunteers have decided to complain about him directly to his bosses and as a result he is under investigation. If this is true then it's a new low for some people. Not content with trying to defame and malign everything on the project from the outside it now seems that anyone who tries to help will be targeted too. This gentleman helped out and as such may be in trouble with his Job.
    These people claim to love the aircraft...but the consequences of their actions may have just killed it. We're having serious talks about the future of WR963.
    Followed by (among others):

    While the result for the RAC guy was the right and fair one ,we still have the issue that this sort of rubbish happens every time we make a move , the last time was a month ago when Sam mentioned funding/donations then this and i am wiling to bet the next one will be something to do with the Car Show at the end of the month, It seems this is the tactic in use visit 63 at your peril ,how the hell do we combat that ?!!! DW

    And then some calls from others to name, shame, hang draw and quarter those responsible:

    They have been removed long ago. But use long lenses to photograph the "wrong doings" of those trying to help the project.

    It feels very much a case of if we can't be involved then we will ruin it for others

    They have been named to us however.
    And then...

    Just a quick update, ive just talked to the RAC guy involved ,the great news is things are ok all sorted


    So everything is sorted, and this forum is only getting up to speed with it all a couple of days later, because forums and social media are being somewhat inconsistently engaged. I would say that material isn't shared enough on here and, if anything, over-shared on Facebook by the Shackleton team. The stuff on Facebook sounds like old men squabbling about the height of a hedge, whereas this forum is getting briefed by disgruntled members.

  22. #1522
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    Stick with it Rich, you are doing a marvellous job against a lot of adversary, it is a shame the airport cannot ban these individuals from their property.

  23. #1523
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    This forum, and others, is just as guilty of that. Witness John Green's thread whereby he feels the need to inform us every time a Spitfire passes over Chichester harbor. There is nothing to differentiate those posts from Facebook statuses. Even more maddening are the 'I've just heard from one of my sources that something has happened at X' posts
    What is wrong with that? nothing in my eyes, it is just the same as the what have in the what have you seen thread, it is both nice to read and informative.

  24. #1524
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    There are a number of members on this forum whose sole purpose in life, it seems, is to troll through ever thread to leave posts that are invariably taking a contrary view and argumentative. This came to my attention when, rather arrogantly, I felt I was being followed from thread to thread. However, a quick look at a few other threads quickly revealed these same people making similar posts on many threads. In my view these same people actually contributed very little original material to the forum.

    Of course they have every right to express their views, no question of that, but I now have a black list and no longer respond to posts left by these members.

    Personally I think some of the comments recently made on this thread are libelous and, if having no documented proof, the poster should do the decent thing and remove them himself with an apology. I have invested in 963's future, and I am very happy to continue to do so. My only regret is that my contributions are so meagre.

    Many restoration projects sit on the knife edge of funding but Dave has put his money where his mouth is and saved the aircraft and whilst there will, no doubt, be many pitfalls in the future he, Rich and the rest of the present team are the most likely group to succeed, IMHO.
    I had just got round to seeing the glass as half full instead of half empty, when some sod came and drank it......

  25. #1525
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    Over the years I have had various dealings with the Shackleton WR963 project; amongst those various contacts the two most straightforward and easy to deal with people have been Rich and Dave Woods.

    As per my most recent post please get in touch if you want a chat!
    Find out what's happening at …. newarkairmuseum.org
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  26. #1526
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    So sorry all this rubbish is happening to folks with such good intentions.
    Very best of luck for the future

  27. #1527
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    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle
    Following WR963 on Facebook I was troubled to see the post about the RAC man. I was heartened to see people offering their photographs up to prove that he 'phone it in', but the whole thing seemed like dirty laundry being aired. You need to monitor and moderate your social media content better than this. Some petty squabble between the old Shackleton team and the new needs to be kept offline, and your content on Facebook or wherever has to be synced to what is posted on here, UKARSE, or whatever other forums you post to.
    The fact an RAC patrolman had his livelihood placed in jeopardy isn't what I'd call petty. Its rather nasty, and vindictive toward someone that wasn't/isn't part of things past or present. Why try to ruin his life?

    I post on here updates as to the condition and work on the aircraft. No gossip, no mess, no craziness, no petty squabble. Just spanner work. That is what will continue as and when my day job stops getting in the way of me working on aeroplanes. As to what gets posted on Facebook, thats up to the admins on there and if they choose to sign up to this forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle
    I do however wonder if 963 will ever return to the air. All I've seen for the last couple of years is endless tinkering, with the engines being babied into life and various faults and niggles being dealt with along the way.
    I guess you missed the taxy runs then. The endless tinkering is called maintenance, and the engines aren't babied into life they tend to start pretty well, other than the usual foibles found when water gets in. But all you see isn't all there is. Keeping the aircraft going is one branch of things and it brings in interest and support, with the airworthy components being laid away for when they will be needed. Things like engines, propellers, hydraulic components, a couple of new tail fins, fuel tanks, control surfaces.... and the plethora of other bits. Trying to get all the original equipment manufacturers to rebuild parts that haven't been available for donkey's years. Researching fatigue lives of components. Digging through fatigue records. Chipping away the red tape and the mountain of work bit by bit by bit. But in between all this we keep her running, keep letting people on board, and up close, and keep the enthusiasm and smiles even in the face of continued adversity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle
    It looks like a fun project, but I'm not convinced that, with all the will the world, the jump to getting her to fly can be made given the current situation.
    We can but try. None of us are willing to let WR963 fade away yet, and the work done is too much to abandon now, just because it sometimes seems a bit too much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Meddle
    If absolutely nothing else, next time you post a close-up photo of the nose, clean the lichen off first!
    Its on the list, but not vital. Being on grass, it comes back in a month. But hey, if it bugs you that much you want to volunteer to do it, thats cool.



    TwinOtter, Oxcart, TonyT, Paul, TrolleyAux, WL747 and all - thanks for the support guys, the ride's not over yet.


    Regards,

    Rich
    Last edited by richw_82; 4th July 2017 at 20:40.

  28. #1528
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    We got yer back Rich.. keep up the great work over there mate!
    Cheers,Peter
    "Merlins always drip oil, when they don't....worry!"

  29. #1529
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    Rich, as long as you can look someone in the eye, explain why you are adopting the approach that you are and knowing that you are doing your best for the charity and WR963; then things will work out OK in the end. Keep going and prove the doubters wrong!
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  30. #1530
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    [QUOTE'TonyT ']What is wrong with that? nothing in my eyes, it is just the same as the what have in the what have you seen thread, it is both nice to read and informative.[/QUOTE]

    My point was that it is no different to what is posted on Facebook. Many on this forum, perhaps including yourself, seem to have an issue with social media and Facebook in particular, but use this forum in a broadly similar manner to the millions of FB users.

    Quote Originally Posted by richw_82
    The fact an RAC patrolman had his livelihood placed in jeopardy isn't what I'd call petty. Its rather nasty, and vindictive toward someone that wasn't/isn't part of things past or present. Why try to ruin his life?

    I post on here updates as to the condition and work on the aircraft. No gossip, no mess, no craziness, no petty squabble. Just spanner work. That is what will continue as and when my day job stops getting in the way of me working on aeroplanes. As to what gets posted on Facebook, thats up to the admins on there and if they choose to sign up to this forum.
    If you are only going to stoically post engineering updates on here then it would probably be best to ensure that admins (or whoever) on Facebook are doing the same. If you followed the progress strictly from this thread you get a different picture to the dirty laundry being aired on FB.

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