MiG-29 Fulcrum

[EELightning]

I can certainly make claim that MIG-35 is better than Eurocanards. it was the only aircraft demonstrated weopons firing with AESA radar in MMRCA. which EF simply couldnot. seeing the prolong negotiation of MMRCA it seems the whole process was bogus.

Still, your Mig-35 never turned up for Aero India nor was it shortlisted as the Typhoon and Rafale were.

And, the "Only" aircraft to demonstrate firing weapons with an AESA radar? So you're not aware of Lockheed Martin borrowing the UAEAF's Block 60 F-16s with AESA to perform trials in India, as did the Boeing F/A-18E/F?

with infusion of huge money in Russina aviation industry and Ruaf procurement before 2020. It is more than likely that MIG-35 will always be at the top interms of new weopons/upgrades to avionics, engines etc.
There is simply not that much money in EU to improve EF/Rafale/Gripen. and what little left will go towards procurement of JSF.

Yeah, Russian aircraft will receive funding for upgrades, but it doesn't mean they'll be any better. And you're obviously not aware of upgrades currently underway for Rafale, Gripen and Typhoon. The Rafale has a very wide range of weapons already integrated, certainly more versatile than Typhoon and Gripen at this stage, and at the very least on par (or better in my view) with the Mig-35.

Are you aware of what upgrades and enhancements Typhoon are receiving as I type this? Most certainly not...

TVC is not useless. It is being in used aircraft like Su-30MKI/F-22 which has far worse TWR than newer MIG-35. MIG-35 TVC is newer one.

Never said it was useless. It has it's advantages but what advantages one gains their is a disadvantage to pay for in other areas, engine/airframe fatigue, loss of energy in certain situations in WVR.

[MSphere]

Still, your Mig-35 never turned up for Aero India nor was it shortlisted as the Typhoon and Rafale were.

Not necessarily technical, that could have had much to do with simple choosing a different vendor than Russia to diversify risk.
I vaguely remember that the MiG-35 actually performed pretty well in the tests, even if its AESA radar was not full size at that time.

[Rii]

I think this article from Livefist about says it all re: MiG-35 and MMRCA.

[Berkut]

Nice little quite there. Which take it all out of context..

What?

Ofcourse the pilot CAN de/activate it if he need to or want to. But as used on the Serial produced units. The TVC are integrated on the Su-35S and its there all the time, period!
Its several good reasons its there all the time, its called "integrated" into the FCS.. as if not this being obvious, there are sub standard reason to do it this way. Its about increase safty aspect of flight or rather when somethin goes wrong or any damage to flight controls or even engine failure, the TVC through the FCS will make the needed adustment to keep the thing in the air until it returned to base. Atleast this is the very idea.

I am still confused what you mean exactly. If you mean that when pilot deactivate TVC it is still "lurking" in the background in case of the pilot going into dangerous situation, that is not the case. If it is not what you meant, i suggest you write it in norwegian.

When it is turned off, it is turned off. Period.

According to a test pilot:

"...unlike other planes, where it is a risk to stall or go into critical regimes, here in principle, if TVC is turned on there is more or less no minimal speed and AoA limits are lifted. Practically if there is enough height you can get out of any situation."

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/conte...81920-c95o.htm

That means the plane behaves differently if TVC is turned on or not, and the limits are different. Which is what i said earlier.

[haavarla]

What?


I am still confused what you mean exactly. If you mean that when pilot deactivate TVC it is still "lurking" in the background in case of the pilot going into dangerous situation, that is not the case. If it is not what you meant, i suggest you write it in norwegian.

When it is turned off, it is turned off. Period.

According to a test pilot:

"...unlike other planes, where it is a risk to stall or go into critical regimes, here in principle, if TVC is turned on there is more or less no minimal speed and AoA limits are lifted. Practically if there is enough height you can get out of any situation."

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/conte...81920-c95o.htm

That means the plane behaves differently if TVC is turned on or not, and the limits are different. Which is what i said earlier.

Why is this so hard to understand?
I said i don't doubt there are some switches for turning the TVC off. Ofcourse there will be such feature.
But it changes nothing. The TVC is integrated in the Su-35S FCS. Which mean it is constructed, and used with additional software to be operated in the daily flights and service.
Its also why its not a simple matter for VVS Su-27 pilots to just fly off with their latest toy. They have to train up to the new capability, the TVC included. Cause the Su-35S behave quite differently vs Su-27 with none TVC.
So yet again the TVC is designed and intended to be engaged when flying.
So its a moot point of your to linger with this "but it can be turned off" nonsens..

[Berkut]

Nonsense?

Talking to you is like talking to a brick wall.

[Fedaykin]

You forget that if JSR could marry the Mig-35...well you get the idea

First night after the wedding would be interesting

[EELightning]

You forget that if JSR could marry the Mig-35...well you get the idea

First night after the wedding would be interesting

Which begs the question: Who would need maintained first after so little mileage?

[Peregrinefalcon]

What?


I am still confused what you mean exactly. If you mean that when pilot deactivate TVC it is still "lurking" in the background in case of the pilot going into dangerous situation, that is not the case. If it is not what you meant, i suggest you write it in norwegian.

When it is turned off, it is turned off. Period.

According to a test pilot:

"...unlike other planes, where it is a risk to stall or go into critical regimes, here in principle, if TVC is turned on there is more or less no minimal speed and AoA limits are lifted. Practically if there is enough height you can get out of any situation."

http://tvzvezda.ru/news/forces/conte...81920-c95o.htm

According to Indian pilots when you turn off TVC, FCS is working like there is not TVC (like regular Su-30 with all the limitations) but if the pilot somehow makes the plane go over the limit TVC activates automatically to prevent the plane to go in to a stall/spin. By turning the TVC of there is less "wear and tear" of the nozzle (unlike F-22 TVC that is turned on all the time) but there is always a "safe/silent mode" in case of emergency.

That means the plane behaves differently if TVC is turned on or not, and the limits are different. Which is what i said earlier.

That is correct.

[Peregrinefalcon]

OK, F-22 is in fact not a good example because it would have the flat nozzles anyway due to RCS and IR signature management.
Still, nothing is for free including the KLIVT nozzle. I've found 90kg on this site: http://www.leteckemotory.cz/motory/rd-33/
Thats 180kg on the back of the airplane which need to be balanced. Plus of course the needed adjustments to the flight control system. If you incorporate tvc right from the start like on the PAK-FA, you can reduce size and thus weight of control surfaces. But that hasn't been done on the MiG or other possible candidates for retroffiting.

Mig-35 unlike the basic Mig-29 has relaxed stability (CG is moved aft) with redesigned LREX, wing and tail (they produce more lift). That extra 180kg is incorporated in to a CG and CL position relative to each other and it`s nicely tuned to work perfectly with TVC.
If you take example of 117S or 117 engine you will see that they are as light as or even lighter than basic Al-31F (no weight penalty). There are numerous gains from TVC integration!

Bottom line is, no one seems to bother with tvc on previously non-tvc designs.

Only nations that have cost-effective and mature technology

[Peregrinefalcon]

Never said it was useless. It has it's advantages but what advantages one gains their is a disadvantage to pay for in other areas, engine/airframe fatigue

I don`t see almost any disadvantage and I see great number of advantages.
When talking about fatigue, you have the option to turn the TVC off for most of the time. Overall nozzle service life will probably be shorter, but in the long term having the TVC will be more cost efficient and the reason is increased safety. The existence of redundant means of aircraft control allows for a better survivability (aerodynamic control surface ineffectiveness - entering stall/spin etc.). In peace time, an aircraft crash by loss of aerodynamic control could be avoided by the use of Thrust Vectoring. In war time, damage to aerodynamic control surfaces can be compensated with Thrust Vectoring. Having more frequent nozzle servicing is few times less expensive than loss of the plane.

loss of energy in certain situations in WVR.

That goes under "tactical mistake" and has nothing to do with TVC. You can lose speed and make tactically wrong decision in the plane without TVC.
TVC "only" drastically expands your flight envelope and you need to know how to use it properly just as everything else in order to be more effective.

[Berkut]

According to Indian pilots when you turn off TVC, FCS is working like there is not TVC (like regular Su-30 with all the limitations) but if the pilot somehow makes the plane go over the limit TVC activates automatically to prevent the plane to go in to a stall/spin. By turning the TVC of there is less "wear and tear" of the nozzle (unlike F-22 TVC that is turned on all the time) but there is always a "safe/silent mode" in case of emergency.

Ah thanks. Would be interesting to know if the Su-35S pilot was talking literally, or if there is a lurking mode ala as on MKI.

[Andraxxus]

Ah thanks. Would be interesting to know if the Su-35S pilot was talking literally, or if there is a lurking mode ala as on MKI.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OfINfouJbTE If you look carefully at 4:27, you will see the "lurking mode" nozzle movement in yaw axis. This is the case where overzealous pilot temporarily exceeds the limits and TVC corrects it sharply. This is also a demonstration how TVC can be useful in a dogfight situation. Was it necessary? No, rudder motion alone would have corrected it anyway. However its good not to worry about limits and having the unwanted rotation corrected quickly.

[Austin]

MiG-29UPG delivers

[Peregrinefalcon]

Ah thanks. Would be interesting to know if the Su-35S pilot was talking literally, or if there is a lurking mode ala as on MKI.

I think that pilot was talking generally about expansion of flight envelope when TVC is on. One aspect of the TVC that is very important is flight safety and for that reason I think that "lurking mode" is imperative. Andraxxus gave nice example for that. The same thing applies to PAK FA. There is a video from MAKS 2011 where we can see similar situation as with Su-35S.